hand conditioning side effects

[blindsage]

I didn't get that. Instead, I interpreted his statements as "if you don't know how to throw a punch, and don't know how to avoid altercations, then hand/shin/foot conditioning isn't very useful."

I may be wrong, of course.

Read the 2nd half of the post

In addition, all of this is thrown out the window if you lack proper methods.
A conditioned area is like a sword. Sure, it can be forged better than others using the sword, but if one cannot properly swing that sword, what good is the weapon?

Or if one has forged it and can swing it, and they come across someone who shoots them, what good was it then?

I knew a martial artist who had his hands, forearms, and shins conditioned well. Upon a scuff on a highway, he got shot and died. All of this training went out of the window because he lost track of one thing-the mentality of how to deal with altercations.

Why is this a point related to conditioning? Doesn't it relate to martial arts in general?

 

[rickster]

I'm not a fan of iron palm type training but the way your first post was worded could be applied to any part of MA training, speed, strength, forms, drills, etc. If it isn't accompanied by "proper methods". Why single out this particular area?

You hit the nail on the head...

Why single out a particular area....

Yes, many doing conditioning are "single-out this area"


This reminds me of my sister, who wanted to get a handgun for protection.

I told her to seek out instruction as well as a lot of "range time"

She did not focus on that.

All she kept focusing on was obtaining a gun because she thought it was the ultimate protection.

After a period of time, someone had made a attempt to car jack her while she was still in her car.

She pulled out her gun and did not know how to fire it.

She managed to escape with her purse and gun in hand

Upon the arrival by the police, a officer pointed out to her, that her firearm was not loaded. Zero on ammo.

 

[rickster]

Read the 2nd half of the post



Why is this a point related to conditioning? Doesn't it relate to martial arts in general?

Because too much is emphasized on conditioning.

Every time someone speaks of conditioning, it is from a view like it is "the must have"

 

[Chris Parker]

You hit the nail on the head...

Why single out a particular area....

Yes, many doing conditioning are "single-out this area"

Do you seriously think that people posting about conditioning methods and drills are ONLY doing that? What basis do you have for such an assumption? As far as why it's been singled out in this thread, well.... it's a thread about hand conditioning! In conjunction with other training methods and drills, as part of an entire art.

Seriously, your entire argument is completely lacking in any basis in the discussion.

This reminds me of my sister, who wanted to get a handgun for protection.

I told her to seek out instruction as well as a lot of "range time"

She did not focus on that.

All she kept focusing on was obtaining a gun because she thought it was the ultimate protection.

After a period of time, someone had made a attempt to car jack her while she was still in her car.

She pulled out her gun and did not know how to fire it.

She managed to escape with her purse and gun in hand

Upon the arrival by the police, a officer pointed out to her, that her firearm was not loaded. Zero on ammo.

No, that doesn't really have anything to do with this. You, on the one hand, state that people shouldn't focus on just one area, then point out that because your sister didn't focus on this one area, she came up short in reality... what?

 

[Cyriacus]

To Ricksters story, I went to a firing range about a year ago. Firing guns is surprisingly easy. You load Them, and often, You can just mash the trigger whilst pointing it in the general direction. Pistols are surprisingly stable. Some firearms need to be readied, first. Thats just one quick addition to the process. But hey - Id prefer a knife to a revolver when the person is close enough to headbutt you.

EDIT: Mind, Im not trying to educate You. Im saying, Pistols are surprisingly stable.

 

[mograph]

Read the 2nd half of the post

Hmm ... I was giving the post a favourable reading. However, yes, the argument did diffuse itself somewhat, so I'll try to avoid doing the same and sharpen my critical saw. Must reflect ...

 

[rickster]

Here is a thought;

One does not need to condition the hands (feet, shins) to be a better martial artist

One does not need to break boards to be a better martial artist

One does not need to have a title (like master) to be a better martial artist

One does not need to have rank/black belt to be a better martial artist

One does not need to go off to China or Japan, to be a better martial artist

And a paradox to state; One does not need to hard core fight to be a better martial artist

Everything about martial art study tends to get blown out of proportion

Hence, hand conditioning

 

[Cyriacus]

Here is a thought;

One does not need to condition the hands (feet, shins) to be a better martial artist

One does not need to break boards to be a better martial artist

One does not need to have a title (like master) to be a better martial artist

One does not need to have rank/black belt to be a better martial artist

One does not need to go off to China or Japan, to be a better martial artist

And a paradox to state; One does not need to hard core fight to be a better martial artist

Everything about martial art study tends to get blown out of proportion

Hence, hand conditioning

One does not need to train Martial Arts at all.

 

[rickster]

One does not need to train Martial Arts at all.

Indeed. Most of the population does not

 

[Chris Parker]

Just a simple question, then Rickster.... if you are of the opinion that the majority of the population doesn't need to train in martial arts, what are you doing discussing what should and shouldn't be a part of them at all? You might want to remember that this isn't the general forum, this is a specific Chinese martial arts one, who have many systems that utilise conditioning in various forms. You might not use it, but by your reasoning, you don't need martial arts training either. So what are you doing here?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Hand conditioning in CMA is perfectly fine if done right.

Hand conditioning in CMA is crippling if done wrong

Don’t want to train hand conditioning….don’t

Want to train hand conditioning…do it right or don’t do it at all

Training hand conditioning without a sifu is doing it wrong....so...find a sifu or don't do it at all

The End

 

[mograph]

Of course, it has to be a good sifu ...

 

[rickster]

Just a simple question, then Rickster.... if you are of the opinion that the majority of the population doesn't need to train in martial arts, what are you doing discussing what should and shouldn't be a part of them at all? You might want to remember that this isn't the general forum, this is a specific Chinese martial arts one, who have many systems that utilise conditioning in various forms. You might not use it, but by your reasoning, you don't need martial arts training either. So what are you doing here?

Interesting post, but as there is much oppositon about mine, usually people get offensive when you step onto their cherished-beloved subject

The subject is of hand conditioning and the side effects.

There will be side effects in the long run to any type of conditioning.

Thus, we have to look up the reason of the need;

It used to be that a martial artist had to train rigorous, per many were of military, body guards-escorts.

Now, if one is to train in hardcore fighting, like MT, then sure, they have to condition themselves.

Look upon the many martial arts/artists that do not do breaking, nor do hard core hand-shin conditioning, high kicking, etc.

Why would anyone train this way, when decades later in their life, they will still have to apply a ointment or seek other medical attention to ?

Is it that people who train hardcore, are social outcasts or are maybe those who have a mental state of obessiveness who have a belief of paranoia necessity?


But, we are in a modern age, and martial arts has come to pass as more like a solice fad.

All that martial arts offer, can be obtained from some form or another within the world.

Simply, the masses are not martial artists.

Martial arts, like some other activities, could also be consdiered as a zealous fad.


I am on a martial art forum, because I am a martial artist.

I have been one nearly 4 decades.

I, too. started off with the many "entertaining ideas-myths-associations", but I grew to understand that a large part of this was not necessary-as I grew older and fell more in to modern society.

I take upon a more realistic approach of how I, as a martial artist, train, need, and use my skill set, IN accordance to modern society.

We, as martial artists in modern society, will hardly ever have to use hardcore hand-shin conditioning/breaking, jumping-high kicks, etc, to be successful martial arts in modern society

Just like there are "realistic-modern" self defense aproaches, " "realistic-modern" weaponry, anything being studied or trained without a"realistic-modern" mindset, "could be considered"; as a waste of time, or a contribution to a zealot fad or hobby.

 

[DaleDugas]

I teach Iron Palm as well as Iron Body and recently broke some coconuts at the Tai Chi Gala.

I can teach you these skills without causing any issues.

I am a licensed acupuncturist and herbalist and my hands are my livelihood.

If anyone is interested I teach these skills openly.

 

[Chris Parker]

Oh dear.

Interesting post, but as there is much oppositon about mine, usually people get offensive when you step onto their cherished-beloved subject

There's "much opposition" as you seem to be basically telling people that they're wasting their time by training in their chosen arts, with the seeming argument that because not every martial artist gets in serious fights, it's useless? Then you wonder why they get upset with your comments?

The subject is of hand conditioning and the side effects.

Close. It's asking about proper methods and potential side effects. Note the important word there.

There will be side effects in the long run to any type of conditioning.

No, not if things are done properly. But, judging from this post of yours, as well as all your other posts, you have no experience with actual conditioning methods yourself, so I'm not sure where you're getting this from...

Thus, we have to look up the reason of the need;

Except you're only looking at one potential need, not at the variety that exist.

It used to be that a martial artist had to train rigorous, per many were of military, body guards-escorts.

Were they now? Anything to actually back that up? I believe you'll find that there were many other people who were martial artists... and that the military were, by and large, not.

Now, if one is to train in hardcore fighting, like MT, then sure, they have to condition themselves.

But for no other form of art?

Look upon the many martial arts/artists that do not do breaking, nor do hard core hand-shin conditioning, high kicking, etc.

I really don't know what high-kicking has to do with anything there....

Why would anyone train this way, when decades later in their life, they will still have to apply a ointment or seek other medical attention to ?

Still apply an ointment? According to who? The Dit Da Jow mentioned isn't something that requires being applied to prevent injuries later in life, you know... although it can be good for a range of things. This, amongst other comments, leads me to believe you have no experience in such training.

Is it that people who train hardcore, are social outcasts or are maybe those who have a mental state of obessiveness who have a belief of paranoia necessity?

Uh... no? I really don't have a clue what you're going on about here....

But, we are in a modern age, and martial arts has come to pass as more like a solice fad.

Is that supposed to be "social" fad? But, if so, I'd argue no. Martial arts are not a fad, and people are drawn to them for far deeper reasons than many might realise, when it all comes down to it.

All that martial arts offer, can be obtained from some form or another within the world.

Sure, but not in the same way. Still, the same things that you can get from football, you can get from baseball, so why not just get rid of football? Just pointless, isn't it?

Simply, the masses are not martial artists.

But we're not dealing with the masses, we're dealing with people who are already training in (in this case) Chinese martial arts, which often includes hand conditioning as part of the training regime.

Martial arts, like some other activities, could also be consdiered as a zealous fad.

Are you sure you're wanting to be part of a martial arts community, then?

I am on a martial art forum, because I am a martial artist.

I have been one nearly 4 decades.

Then why the attitude that it's all pointless? And what arts have you been studying for the past 4 decades?

I, too. started off with the many "entertaining ideas-myths-associations", but I grew to understand that a large part of this was not necessary-as I grew older and fell more in to modern society.

I take upon a more realistic approach of how I, as a martial artist, train, need, and use my skill set, IN accordance to modern society.

Except you're only looking at an immediate practicality in what you do, and that's not all there is to martial arts. In fact, I'd say it's the least aspect. Hand conditioning may be preparatory work for later parts of the system, for instance, which cannot be attained if sufficient conditioning isn't trained.

We, as martial artists in modern society, will hardly ever have to use hardcore hand-shin conditioning/breaking, jumping-high kicks, etc, to be successful martial arts in modern society

Again with the high kicks... but seriously, what's the point you're trying to make here? My training isn't for others, it's for me, and what I do in my training isn't really anything to do with society as a whole either.

Just like there are "realistic-modern" self defense aproaches, " "realistic-modern" weaponry, anything being studied or trained without a"realistic-modern" mindset, "could be considered"; as a waste of time, or a contribution to a zealot fad or hobby.

Wow. I really don't know what you're doing here, you don't seem to think there's any reason to train in any aspect of martial arts at all....

 

[rickster]

Oh dear.

Oh brother

There's "much opposition" as you seem to be basically telling people that they're wasting their time by training in their chosen arts, with the seeming argument that because not every martial artist gets in serious fights, it's useless? Then you wonder why they get upset with your comments?

I am basically saying that there are reasons to do things and do look upon these reasons of the "why", instead of "just doing"

Close. It's asking about proper methods and potential side effects. Note the important word there.

Potentital, er, the word should be changed to more likely

No, not if things are done properly. But, judging from this post of yours, as well as all your other posts, you have no experience with actual conditioning methods yourself, so I'm not sure where you're getting this from...

I dont care how "properly" one thinks they are doing it. The body can oonly withstand a degree os this and then age catches up.
But I guess, no one care to interview old asters who have done this and have suffered from side effects

Except you're only looking at one potential need, not at the variety that exist.

Nope. As I stated somewhere, some look upon the "potential need" to condition, and focus on this, than utilising a variety that exist
So, thanks, you proved my point. (From one of my other posts)

Were they now? Anything to actually back that up? I believe you'll find that there were many other people who were martial artists... and that the military were, by and large, not.

Yeah, and they did this why? I guess they were in a modern society....

I really don't know what high-kicking has to do with anything there....

Sure it does. It is as much a thing to do not from modern necessity as hardcore conditioning and breaking, etc

Still apply an ointment? According to who? The Dit Da Jow mentioned isn't something that requires being applied to prevent injuries later in life, you know... although it can be good for a range of things. This, amongst other comments, leads me to believe you have no experience in such training.

Prevent injuries....Nah, its about doing something so much, that you need to apply a ointment to aid

Is that supposed to be "social" fad? But, if so, I'd argue no. Martial arts are not a fad, and people are drawn to them for far deeper reasons than many might realise, when it all comes down to it.

Yep-FAD...You dont need it in modern society to survive.....

Sure, but not in the same way. Still, the same things that you can get from football, you can get from baseball, so why not just get rid of football? Just pointless, isn't it?

I am not or never stated to "get rid of martial arts" I am saying that if it was such a "grand puba" of something needed, why aren't the masses doing it, leaving a few to not (per vise versa)

But we're not dealing with the masses, we're dealing with people who are already training in (in this case) Chinese martial arts, which often includes hand conditioning as part of the training regime.

Wow. I guess you got me there. I guess you also proved my point about the "minority" (CMA)

Are you sure you're wanting to be part of a martial arts community, then?

One can be a part of anything. And thus, once they were for many years, they can speak their mind on what they dont agree with....

Then why the attitude that it's all pointless? And what arts have you been studying for the past 4 decades?

Again, I am not really stating that it is "ALL POINTLESS", I am stating how people get obessed wiith something, esp not of necessity in modern society.

Think of it as religion.

Everyone is out there claiming theirs is the way to go.

But there is so much out there, that too many people "put on blinders"

 

[mograph]

Hand conditioning in CMA is perfectly fine if done right.
Hand conditioning in CMA is crippling if done wrong
Don’t want to train hand conditioning….don’t
Want to train hand conditioning…do it right or don’t do it at all
Training hand conditioning without a sifu is doing it wrong....so...find a sifu or don't do it at all

The End

I think this is a very clear post. In contrast, I haven't seen much clarity come from the recent posts that attempt to clarify positions, so it might be a good time to take a breath and discuss proper, safe methods of hand conditioning for those who wish to undertake it for their own reasons.

Personally, I know nothing about the subject that I haven't read in this forum. If I were to actually undertake the study of hand conditioning, i would seek out a sifu and meet his students, especially the older ones. But given all I have on my plate, it's a low priority, and I expect that it would be a long time before hand conditioning is the weakest link in my martial skillset, such as it is. :asian:

 

[Chris Parker]

Oh brother

Okay, it's going to be one of those...

I am basically saying that there are reasons to do things and do look upon these reasons of the "why", instead of "just doing"

How's this for a reason: because it's part of the systems training. If you don't want to do it, don't train in that system. You obviously don't want it, you don't train it, but that doesn't mean that it's wrong, or the reasons for training it for others isn't valid. As a result, your entire argument is really beside the point of this thread. Give it up.

Potentital, er, the word should be changed to more likely

"Potentital"? Well, I'd change it into English first... but no, it shouldn't be changed to "more likely". Potential side effects/injuries etc are really only present if the conditioning is approached badly, taught badly (or done without guidance) in the first place. When done properly, there's really no issue in that regard. And that's coming from someone with nearly 20 years of conditioning experience here... what was yours again?

I dont care how "properly" one thinks they are doing it. The body can oonly withstand a degree os this and then age catches up.
But I guess, no one care to interview old asters who have done this and have suffered from side effects

Can you answer whether or not you've got any actual experience to back this up with? Because you really don't seem to know how conditioning is achieved here.

Nope. As I stated somewhere, some look upon the "potential need" to condition, and focus on this, than utilising a variety that exist
So, thanks, you proved my point. (From one of my other posts)

I hardly proved any point you've tried to make, mate. You have stated that the reason not to do so is because the student might never end up in a fight, making all the effort put into conditioning moot... you have, however, been presented with other possible reasons, or needs, for the training, but seem to have refused to acknowledge them.

Oh, and if you could possibly manage some grammar in one of your posts, that'd be appreciated (I have no idea what "...and focus on this, than utilising a variety that exist" is supposed to actually mean...).

Yeah, and they did this why? I guess they were in a modern society....

No, they weren't. You may want to start reading up a bit more before announcing your understanding of history...

Sure it does. It is as much a thing to do not from modern necessity as hardcore conditioning and breaking, etc

(Me) "I really don't know what high-kicking has to do with anything there...."
(You) "Sure it does".

Dude, grammar. Please. Sure it does... what? Have something to do with the discussion of hand conditioning? Are you serious? Do you have a clue about what makes a martial art, and why it does things the way it does? Or do you just feel that any martial artist that does something you don't get shouldn't do it, regardless of which art they're training in?

Prevent injuries....Nah, its about doing something so much, that you need to apply a ointment to aid

No, it's not. That's not what the ointment is for (the way you're saying it). You really don't have a single days experience in this, do you? Or are you going to avoid answering that question again?

Yep-FAD...You dont need it in modern society to survive.....

Firstly, that's not the definition of a fad. In fact, the definition of a fad centers on it's position in a modern society, so I really think you should rethink the words you're choosing here.

That said, you're showing (again) a huge lack of understanding of martial arts, and why they're trained today again.

I am not or never stated to "get rid of martial arts" I am saying that if it was such a "grand puba" of something needed, why aren't the masses doing it, leaving a few to not (per vise versa)

Except you're on a martial arts forum, arguing that essential aspects of some arts shouldn't be trained, as you can't see value in them, which has turned to you saying that there isn't really much value in martial arts at all (in a modern society)... I really have to ask again, what the hell are you doing here?

Wow. I guess you got me there. I guess you also proved my point about the "minority" (CMA)

Are you delusional?!? There is nothing in my post that "proves" anything close to a point for you.

One can be a part of anything. And thus, once they were for many years, they can speak their mind on what they dont agree with....

Except you're talking absolute garbage, and have shown no ability to take on board anything you're being told. Honestly, the only reason I can see for what you're doing is that you're enjoying trolling.

Again, I am not really stating that it is "ALL POINTLESS", I am stating how people get obessed wiith something, esp not of necessity in modern society.

Think of it as religion.

Everyone is out there claiming theirs is the way to go.

But there is so much out there, that too many people "put on blinders"

Again, you're saying that because you don't see value, no-one should do it.

How about you take this on board, Rickster... this thread is about the proper methods for hand conditioning within Chinese martial arts. It is not about whether or not one should engage in hand conditioning. So, if you don't have anything to say about correct methods (and saying that you think everyone who does it gets injured and "needs ointment" really just shows you don't have a clue about the actual methods, so you know), I'd suggest refraining from getting involved. But if you do decide to post again, can you do us one favour? Answer the damn questions you've been asked before you get to anything else. It's just good netiquette...

 

[Master Dan]

While you are focusing on conditioning the hand remember especially young who are still forming bones and the older that entire body is involved wrist elbow arm shoulder neck and even lower lumbar related to more dificult breaks.

The extreme focus on building calcium deposits on knuckes and hands is not necessary related to self defense. it is good to be able to hit or strike as hard as you can at floor or other objects with out injury and more than once shows conditioning but extreme breaking lik my GM who was one of the strongest I have ever seen punching or knife hand 5 center blocks no spacing no fakery wet dry didn't matter also 7 ounce coke bottles smashing with punch or knife hand with out injury at the time in later years broke so many of the small bones behind the knuckles he had to have surgery and his hand looked more like a claw in the end for what purpose.

Those in the know understand that controled striking and manipulation to vital areas with hardened areas of the hands, knuckles and other parts of the body do not require extreme force or conditioning that will lead to pain and loss of use in later years. People need to take out the Ego in breaking, wood brick other non living objects in time always win. Moderation and council from an experience master should be followed and sad to say some are sadistic in enjoying your pain.

young or old anyone who once breaks any of the small bones behind the knuckles will not heal properly for life it will have a lump and pain and will rebreak again!

 

[mograph]

Assuming you only wanted to strike an opponent (not a brick, board or block), would you need to condition your hands to avoid injuring them (by accidentally hitting a skull or a jaw)? And if so, to what extent should the hands be conditioned?

(I don't mean you'd condition them by hitting a skull or a jaw -- I mean you might injure them by hitting a skull or jaw accidentally. Hope that's clear. Otherwise that'd be one bad-*** dojo. "Hold still, kid.")