Hand and foot arrive at the same time, or foot arrive first and hand arrive later?

[dvcochran]

Are you unable to score with a lead hand punch in Olympic tkd? And how was the power on that strike?

Correct, no lead hand scores. Stronger than you may think for a semi-segmented punch. You can create good power once you learn how to swing the leg properly and can create the visible shudder necessary for a score. It is a close range punch used with or as a setup.

 

[jks9199]

The answer is "yes" in my experience.

It all depends on how you generate power. A fist-before-foot creates a falling power of the whole body weight falling into the punch. Foot-and-fist-together is similar, but a little less pronounced, though more recoverable/balanced. Foot-then-fist allows you to generate power through the spine rotation and brings in a different sort of power generation. But it's also the most balanced and recoverable...

So the question isn't which lands first, but how are you generating power?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

More example of "foot stop but hand is still moving". It's clearly to see that "foot and hand stop at the same time" is not part of the Taiji training.

Yang Taiji:

Chen Taiji:

In some MA systems, "foot and hand stop at the same time" is the most important part of their training.

XingYi Liu He:

Baji:

 

[punisher73]

My teacher taught me the Ken Norton method of the punch landing slightly before the foot. It adds a little bit of gravity and body weight into the punch.
I feel all three ways are good.

This was also one of the "secrets" that Jack Dempsey taught called the "falling step".

I also agree that the various methods of timing a punch are based on what you want to happen and are all good in that context.

In general, many beginners are taught foot first and establish a good base and then the punch follows. As you become better, you can apply many of those principles and hit with a whole body punch while in motion.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I like the hand and foot stop at the same time approach. If I land my foot first and strike later, I'll lose that "dropping force" with my body weight.

 

[JadeDragon]

Xingyi steps first.

Xingyi is the only method for adding the force of the step to your strike with the Scissor Stepping: which not only focuses the whole body weight, but lets you 'hit with the ground'.

When you are driving a car, if you put on the brakes slightly before stop, the car will jerk forward a little, before it stops and hit with a lot of force.

If you are moving forward, and halt your step just before you hit something; it will add to the destruction since it propels your whole body weight forward.

When playing basketball, and someone stops a little too late before colliding, it will send the other player flying.

The Xing Yi Scissor Stepping is rooted as a sail boat's keel is. When a boat rocks, it will send a wave of motion upward to the mast; whipping the tip.

A common internal concept is keeping feeling in the rear foot. This feeling, should be based toward the heel, and relates to rooting; and the propagation of the wave energy from the ground, throught the legs, directed by the Lower Dan Tien via the scissor-stepping unique to Hsing-i (Xingyi, Hsing-Yi).

In every movement, watch your Yi. When Yi generates the idea for movement, the Qi will be immediately led to the end section, starting the movement of the end section. The middle section follows and the root section urges the movement. This is not the same as Tai Chi, because the body in Hsing-i is more like rattan than water. Even though it is flexible, the body is hard so when the Yi is generated on the target, the tip can move first, and the power is pushed from the body and the root section.

 

[pdg]

When you are driving a car, if you put on the brakes slightly before stop, the car will jerk forward a little, before it stops and hit with a lot of force.

You're going to have to expand on that one...

I've been driving a variety of cars for almost a quarter of a century, and can say with absolute certainty that putting on the brakes does not, in any way, make the car jerk forward.

 

[dvcochran]

You're going to have to expand on that one...

I've been driving a variety of cars for almost a quarter of a century, and can say with absolute certainty that putting on the brakes does not, in any way, make the car jerk forward.

I believe he is talking about the inertia created by the accelerated forward velocity and mass of an object. Using real world examples. The slight amount of added G force you feel when you get on the brakes really hard for example.

 

[jks9199]

You're going to have to expand on that one...

I've been driving a variety of cars for almost a quarter of a century, and can say with absolute certainty that putting on the brakes does not, in any way, make the car jerk forward.

Actually, the nose dips. The brakes start to slow the car, the mass of the car behind pushes forward and just carries a little bit over the top. But the car doesn't actually accelerate any more, it just maintain its acceleration. and that's a woefully simplified version about the weight shift vehicle

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

 

[JadeDragon]

You're going to have to expand on that one...

I've been driving a variety of cars for almost a quarter of a century, and can say with absolute certainty that putting on the brakes does not, in any way, make the car jerk forward.

When you brake at a stop sign, the times stop first, and the body of the car moves slightly forward, since it is attached by springs to the frame of the car. The tires are attached to the suspension system of the car, which have shock absorbers, torsion bars and yes springs. The car springs forward at a stop, even though the tires have stopped due to forward momentum and when going faster, they might skid.

The body of the car dips forward, on breaking, since that is the angle of the momentum; it does not remain stationary.

When you sprint forward and try and stop, your body also goes forward, and your your head tips downward and forward. Many in basketball have fouled their opponent, due to this effect when they slam the other player with their body; not their tipping head as you imply.

This forward momentum causes the body to hit with more power, which is why stepping first hits with more power wheels timed correctly.

Stepping after the punch causes a change of velocity of the punch which can cause one to slide, trip or change the power vector.

This why Xingyi scissor stepping steps first, which adds the bodies forward momentum to the strike.

 

[JadeDragon]

I believe he is talking about the inertia created by the accelerated forward velocity and mass of an object. Using real world examples. The slight amount of added G force you feel when you get on the brakes really hard for example.

Exactly, thank you.

 

[JowGaWolf]

When you punch, should your hand and foot arrive at the same time (as shown in the following clips)?

or, should your foot arrive first and hand arrive later (as shown in the following clip)?

Your thought?

It just depends on oh the power is being generated. Sometimes it's the foot first and other times the fist and foot go at the same time. I don't think it's a one size fits all rule.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I like the hand and foot stop at the same time approach. If I land my foot first and strike later, I'll lose that "dropping force" with my body weight.

It's also a faster punch when moving. Move and punch vs move then punch.

 

[pdg]

The car analogy is terrible and incorrect.

For a start, the springs haven't been used as the physical connection twixt since the 70s. Even then, leaf springs don't distort with any significance in that plane.

When you brake, you feel "g force" because of your momentum being counteracted by the deceleration - there is ONLY a reduction in speed and force, it does not (it physically cannot) increase.

When I sprint and stop, my head doesn't whip forward and my body doesn't lean forward either, because I have control over my body to a certain extent.

If I'm sprinting and get tripped, then yes my body may well tip forward, but the force will be less than if I just ran into a wall because of reduced momentum due to deceleration.


I'm not arguing that your method of power generation for a punch is bad - but ALL of the analogies so far have been fundamentally flawed and downright misleading.

 

[pdg]

Actually, the nose dips. The brakes start to slow the car, the mass of the car behind pushes forward and just carries a little bit over the top. But the car doesn't actually accelerate any more, it just maintain its acceleration. and that's a woefully simplified version about the weight shift vehicle

It doesn't maintain it's acceleration at all, unless it's found a way to defy the laws of physics and nature.

For anything to accelerate, it must have force applied to it which is sufficient in magnitude to overcome everything stopping it from moving (gravity, friction, etc.)

The very instant the propelling force is removed (you lift your foot from off the accelerator) acceleration ceases. Right then. Instantly. No arguments are valid. (Unless you've chucked it off a cliff, in which case gravity might help out up to a certain point.)

Putting your foot on the brake only reinforces the natural desire of the car to stop moving.

Braking can only ever reduce the force with which a vehicle may hit something or otherwise act upon something.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Xingyi steps first.

Some XingYi system coordinates punch with front foot landing. Some XingYi system coordinates punch with back foot landing. As long a hand is coordinated with a foot, it doesn't violate the 6 harmony principle. But if you coordinate hand with knee, you violate the 6 harmony principle.

 

[JadeDragon]

Animals move in wave like motion. Xingyi is an Internal Martial Arts which uses wave motions similar to animals and the action of water.

These wave motions are like a whip, where one motion builds on and continues the motion separated by short intervals.

Nunchuckus also use this whipping concept.

Stepping slightly before the strike is called scissor stepping in Xingyi.

 

[JadeDragon]

Cars still have springs as part of the suspension system.

The analogy stands, even if they do not now.

The car analogy is terrible and incorrect.

For a start, the springs haven't been used as the physical connection twixt since the 70s. Even then, leaf springs don't distort with any significance in that plane.

When you brake, you feel "g force" because of your momentum being counteracted by the deceleration - there is ONLY a reduction in speed and force, it does not (it physically cannot) increase.

When I sprint and stop, my head doesn't whip forward and my body doesn't lean forward either, because I have control over my body to a certain extent.

If I'm sprinting and get tripped, then yes my body may well tip forward, but the force will be less than if I just ran into a wall because of reduced momentum due to deceleration.


I'm not arguing that your method of power generation for a punch is bad - but ALL of the analogies so far have been fundamentally flawed and downright misleading.

 

[pdg]

Cars still have springs as part of the suspension system.

The analogy stands, even if they do not now.

Car suspension absorbs energy, that's why it's fitted in the first place - if it magnified energy there would be cars bouncing into the sky... It's there to absorb the variations in the surface and isolate the rest of the vehicle and passengers from it. It's also to keep the wheels in contact with the ground - a car with no suspension bounces about a lot. The linkages are built so there is absolutely minimal fore to aft and side to side movement - the forward force is converted to vertical motion, which is why a car dips under braking.

When you brake, the majority of the forward momentum energy is converted into heat by the friction of the brakes and a small portion is dissipated by the springs and shocks.

If you're resolute in your assertion that it's a valid analogy of the mechanics of your punch, I have no logical choice other than to deduce your punch is much less powerful than it could be using a different method.

I.e. you plant your foot, thereby dissipating energy into the ground, reducing the force available from your forward momentum.




Now, because I'm nice, I'll be much more prepared to accept the whip analogy - or just maybe the nunchaku illustration (although the mechanics are different between say a bullwhip and a nun...)

 

[JowGaWolf]

But the car doesn't actually accelerate any more, it just maintain its acceleration.

This part is closer to what it's like for the foot to land at the same time the strike of a punch is landing. In terms of a car I explain it as " the child in the back seat without a seat belt smashing the front window. (think crash test dummy)"

In the case of Martial arts. The body is the car and the fist is the child / passenger.
There are 2 forces of forward movement that we can look at. The body moving forward and the punching moving forward. The concept is that the mass of the body is already moving so you can increase that force by punching. Stopping to punch takes away that forward movement. You are punching after "the child leaves the seat." vs "punching at the moment the child leaves the seat."

I have developed my own special training exercise designed to quickly develop this type of punching. This concept can be applied to many types of punches, more advanced methods allow you to use this same concept for rising strikes such as upward elbows.

The benefit of land first then punch is that it takes less punching power to cause maximum damage. I often refer to it as "punching without punching" because there is so little effort put into the punching arm.