Half Moon Step While Changing Stances

[Bill Mattocks]

Working a lot on my own on stances recently, particularly on transitions. I've been doing some work on simple things like moving from one stance to another. Although we 'walk' using a half-moon style step (the rear foot traces a semi-circular path towards the center, then back out again before becoming the lead foot), I had only recently noticed that some of my senior instructors seem to have the half-moon step in their stance transitions as well. I saw it most clearly in a transition from a 'seisan dachi' to a 'shiko dachi' in the Isshin Ryu kata 'Chinto' and asked about it.

Now that I am looking, I am seeing it everywhere. It seems to me that one can use the semi-circular or half-moon step (sometimes called a hangetsu step) in all or nearly all stance transitions.

As I experiment, I am finding what appears to be better stability and smoother, faster transitions. More 'clean' for lack of a better term.

Anyone else experience this? Am I late to the party, discovering what everyone already knew? Or is this just an example of me thinking too much about transitions from one stance to another?

 

[Touch Of Death]

Working a lot on my own on stances recently, particularly on transitions. I've been doing some work on simple things like moving from one stance to another. Although we 'walk' using a half-moon style step (the rear foot traces a semi-circular path towards the center, then back out again before becoming the lead foot), I had only recently noticed that some of my senior instructors seem to have the half-moon step in their stance transitions as well. I saw it most clearly in a transition from a 'seisan dachi' to a 'shiko dachi' in the Isshin Ryu kata 'Chinto' and asked about it.

Now that I am looking, I am seeing it everywhere. It seems to me that one can use the semi-circular or half-moon step (sometimes called a hangetsu step) in all or nearly all stance transitions.

As I experiment, I am finding what appears to be better stability and smoother, faster transitions. More 'clean' for lack of a better term.

Anyone else experience this? Am I late to the party, discovering what everyone already knew? Or is this just an example of me thinking too much about transitions from one stance to another?

I half moon the knee, and in the transition, you end up knees together, feet apart, in sort of a Pee Wee Herman Pee-Pee Dance stance, every time, but that is as far as it goes. The foot is just a result of that, and yeah, I guess is c's a bit, but not like the knee.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Not sure what it looks like, but it sounds like a sweep or a movement that breaks the root of your opponent. It sounds similar to what I do in kung fu.

 

[jks9199]

Just fuel for thought... but what is a "step"? Is a "step" a transition between stances? So, if crescent stepping is a fundamental principle of steps, would you consider that it just might belong in many stance transitions?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This kind of step is only suitable for stepping forward. It doesn't help if you intend to move side way, move back, or spin your body.

IMO, there are 2 purposes that you may do this when you move your back foot to be in front and curve out.

1. You can run your shin bone into your opponent's leading leg and apply pressure either on the outside of his leg, or inside of his leg. This is commonly used in the grappling art.
2. You point your toes to the side to help your follow on kick. This is commonly used in the striking art.

 

[Danny T]

A step is a kick..., a kick is a step..., a step is a knee..., a knee is a step.
A circle step moves your center off line as you shift your center of gravity over the front foot and allows you to enter from an angle or attack from an angle when stepping through with the circling step vs stepping straight forward. The attack could be a knee or a kick or just stepping in with a punch as well.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Instead of stepping the back foot to be in front of the leading foot, sometime it's better to

- step back foot next to leading foot, and then
- step leading foot.

This way, you won't switch sides and you still have the same side forward, and you won't expose your center to your opponent. Also if anything goes wrong, you can always pull that back foot back before you step your leading foot. Since the distance between you and your opponent hasn't changed yet, if your opponent can't reach you with his kick before your stepping, when you step your back foot next to your leading leg, your opponent still can't kick you.

 

[Danny T]

Instead of stepping the back foot to be in front of the leading foot, sometime it's better to

- step back foot next to leading foot, and then
- step leading foot.

This way, you won't switch sides and you still have the same side forward, and you won't expose your center to your opponent. Also if anything goes wrong, you can always pull that back foot back before you step your leading foot. Since the distance between you and your opponent hasn't changed yet, if your opponent can't reach you with his kick before your stepping, when you step your back foot next to your leading leg, your opponent still can't kick you.

Sometimes it may be better.
Like you stated 'if'.
If the range is correct,
If the timing is correct,
If the angle is correct.

But then everything is a 'if' isn't it.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

But then everything is a 'if' isn't it.

It's a safety issue. For the following stepping,

1. step in the back foot in front of the front foot (this is what we are discussing in this thread).
2. step in front foot, the back foot slide and follow (this doesn't cover much distance).
3. step in the back foot behind (or next to) the front foot, the front foot step in (this is very similar to "jump kick").

For the "safety" concern, IMO, 3 > 2 > 1.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Instead of stepping the back foot to be in front of the leading foot, sometime it's better to

- step back foot next to leading foot, and then
- step leading foot.

This way, you won't switch sides and you still have the same side forward, and you won't expose your center to your opponent. Also if anything goes wrong, you can always pull that back foot back before you step your leading foot. Since the distance between you and your opponent hasn't changed yet, if your opponent can't reach you with his kick before your stepping, when you step your back foot next to your leading leg, your opponent still can't kick you.

What I've learn and I'm still learning in my fighting system is that the back foot stepping in front of the front foot has a wide range of purposes other than moving forward. Moving forward is just the purpose that is commonly used, but after exploring my stances and why certain transitions in the form are done a certain way, I'm learning that a lot of what I thought was just forward movement were actually concealed attacks. In general one can almost say that when the foot makes an advance in a of half-circle inward or outward movement, then what you are actually doing is attacking the root of the opponent. This movement interferes with the the opponent from being able to solidly plant their foot, lock their stances so they can not retreat or advance without complications, or it's actively breaking the root either with a sweep with the foot or , nudge or press by using the knee.

And I think this is where the OP is coming from. Those small and seemingly insignificant ways to transition are actually techniques to be used when the opponent is too busy focusing on smashing my face in. There are times when it's just a regular step forward, but those movements aren't out of the ordinary.

For example, this guy explaining how to transition. Notice that the stance he claims for beginners is actually more advance than the one where you move straight forward. The first transition of the leg coming in and going back out is a technique that is used to break the root of your opponent. With the "beginner's" transition he could press his opponents knee outward. With the "advanced" step he couldn't do the same thing as effectively. Bringing the back leg towards the center and then in a "C" motion outward can be seen in many different martial arts fighting systems.

The movement that the OP is talking about seems to be the reverse of that if I have the correct visualization of the movement in my mind. In this case, as you step forward with your lead leg, his leg would actually move your lead leg to the center or past the center moments before you are able to plant it, this will cause you to have bad footing upon planting and depending on how far over it went you would lose balance and fall or at the very least have difficulty with throwing a punch because of where your foot lands.

if it's like the way that I do it, then your stance would be wider than it should be affecting the power of the punch you want to throw in addition if my knee is in the right position then I can press against your knee with mine and cause you to rip tendons and ligaments in your knee. If you practice the outward version then you have to be extremely careful because it's not just your knee moving into the opponents knee it's the entire weight of your body moving into it.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

What I've learn and I'm still learning in my fighting system is that the back foot stepping in front of the front foot has a wide range of purposes other than moving forward. Moving forward is just the purpose that is commonly used, but after exploring my stances and why certain transitions in the form are done a certain way, I'm learning that a lot of what I thought was just forward movement were actually concealed attacks. In general one can almost say that when the foot makes an advance in a of half-circle inward or outward movement, then what you are actually doing is attacking the root of the opponent. This movement interferes with the the opponent from being able to solidly plant their foot, lock their stances so they can not retreat or advance without complications, or it's actively breaking the root either with a sweep with the foot or , nudge or press by using the knee.

And I think this is where the OP is coming from. Those small and seemingly insignificant ways to transition are actually techniques to be used when the opponent is too busy focusing on smashing my face in. There are times when it's just a regular step forward, but those movements aren't out of the ordinary.

For example, this guy explaining how to transition. Notice that the stance he claims for beginners is actually more advance than the one where you move straight forward. The first transition of the leg coming in and going back out is a technique that is used to break the root of your opponent. With the "beginner's" transition he could press his opponents knee outward. With the "advanced" step he couldn't do the same thing as effectively. Bringing the back leg towards the center and then in a "C" motion outward can be seen in many different martial arts fighting systems.

The movement that the OP is talking about seems to be the reverse of that if I have the correct visualization of the movement in my mind. In this case, as you step forward with your lead leg, his leg would actually move your lead leg to the center or past the center moments before you are able to plant it, this will cause you to have bad footing upon planting and depending on how far over it went you would lose balance and fall or at the very least have difficulty with throwing a punch because of where your foot lands.

if it's like the way that I do it, then your stance would be wider than it should be affecting the power of the punch you want to throw in addition if my knee is in the right position then I can press against your knee with mine and cause you to rip tendons and ligaments in your knee. If you practice the outward version then you have to be extremely careful because it's not just your knee moving into the opponents knee it's the entire weight of your body moving into it.

That's a nice video, thanks for sharing it. That's not exactly what I meant, though. Just as a point of reference, we (Isshin Ryu) do not use such long stances normally; our stances are heel-toe. Nothing wrong with how he is doing it in the video, that's just not how we do it.

With regard to his statement about the C-step or 'crescent step' being only for beginners, that's not correct in our system (I'm sure it's right for his, so I'm not saying he is wrong, only that we don't do it that way). We take a crescent step all the time, beginners and advanced students alike. And as a ni dan, I presume I am considered an advanced student by this time. What does change is that the obviousness of the crescent step changes. It becomes much more subtle; but it never goes away.

I would actually take issue with the gentleman in the video only to say that if the crescent step is for beginners, then what is its purpose if it is going to be discarded when one becomes an advanced student? Teaching something that one knows is of no value doesn't make sense to me. But again, that's for them to figure out in their own system. We do the crescent step at all times.

What I was referring to by 'transitions' was from one TYPE of stance to another. For example, when standing in a heel-toe stance, and then shifting to a (what is sometimes called) a horse stance. Moving from the one to the other. I have been experimenting with using the crescent step to make the transition, as opposed to simply 'getting there' as some might say. In other words, to change stances, your foot or feet must move; that's a given. The question is how we move them to get them from type of stance to another. That was my question.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I would actually take issue with the gentleman in the video only to say that if the crescent step is for beginners,

I also don't agree that the "crescent step" is for the beginners. When you move your back leg to touch your front leg, in CMA, that's temporary stance is called "side cat stance". At that moment, you are ready to kick instead of stepping forward if needed. IMO, it's always safer to divide 1 full step into 2 half steps. This way you can change in the middle of your stepping, That's not the beginner level training at all. A beginner will not think into this level of detail.

 

[JowGaWolf]

That's not exactly what I meant, though.

yep this one is crescent, but it's a good example how the understanding of something that is considered basic is often over looked. I'm not familiar with the stance names in your system and I couldn't find a video that showed what you were describing. But I did find this one which shows how sometimes there are advance applications in the basics that are often over looked. In this guys case he keeps the technique for beginners and throws it away as people advance thinking that it servers no purpose other than helping someone to get into the proper stance.

With regard to his statement about the C-step or 'crescent step' being only for beginners, that's not correct in our system (I'm sure it's right for his, so I'm not saying he is wrong, only that we don't do it that way). We take a crescent step all the time, beginners and advanced students alike.

My school teaches the way you learn. It's in the movement regardless of who is a beginner or who is advanced. It just that the meaning of it isn't shared until years later or until someone sits down and tries to understand what the movement may be doing.

What I was referring to by 'transitions' was from one TYPE of stance to another. For example, when standing in a heel-toe stance, and then shifting to a (what is sometimes called) a horse stance. Moving from the one to the other. I have been experimenting with using the crescent step to make the transition, as opposed to simply 'getting there' as some might say. In other words, to change stances, your foot or feet must move; that's a given. The question is how we move them to get them from type of stance to another. That was my question.

thanks for the clarification. Is this more of what you were thinking of? Heel-toe stance transitioning to horse stance using a half-moon step? or am I'm still way off?

 

[Buka]

Bill, you talking Hadchiji Dachi stance? (pardon the spelling)

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Bill, you talking Hadchiji Dachi stance? (pardon the spelling)

Yes, for lack of a better term. Hachi Dachi is another stance, but very similar. We call it shiko dachi. In any case, the stances are not as important for the purposes of my discussion here as the movement between them. Moving from one to another, utilizing a full or abbreviated crescent step.

 

[punisher73]

IMO, "yes" you will find it in almost all of your stance transitions to some degree. If we look at the concept/principle of the step, we will see that we bring our legs together as we pass through our center point and then re-establish our stance. For example, when we first learn the step from a basic position into a seisan position, we dont' really think about passing through our center as much since we are moving forward. But, when you look at the next form, Seiuchin we see that the same principle applies allowing us to move quickly from Shiko Dachi to Shiko Dachi by bring the far leg into center as it passes through into the next stance transition. It allows you to move and maintain balance throughout the movement. It also allows a "snapshot" in time so to speak that when the legs are together we could also change to any direction to readjust from that point (kenpo gokui of isshin ryu-be able to move in any direction).