Guns in public schools?

[KenpoTex]

This was something that came to my mind again as I was reading through the thread about the Utah Supreme Court ruling. I'm starting a new thread so we don't drift that one too far off topic.

It sounds like most of us feel that the aforementioned ruling is a positive development so let's take this one step farther. Can someone give me any good reason that the teachers/admin. in public elementary, junior, and high schools should not be allowed to carry? Here are a few good reasons why I feel they should. http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777958.html


Before anyone says that allowing teachers/staff to be armed would not accomplish anything, or would be too dangerous; consider the following incident: (full article here)

Pearl High School in Pearl, Mississippi – 1998
After killing his mother, Luke Woodham took a gun to Pearl High School, where he shot and killed the girl who had broken up with him a year earlier. He killed two at that high school and injured seven.
Assistant Principal Joel Myrick heard the first shot and saw Woodham with a gun. Myrick had a .45 in his pickup truck parked a quarter-mile away, off school property. You see, federal law said he couldn’t bring that gun onto school property.
Myrick sprinted to his truck and got his gun. He got back to the school in time to confront Woodham as he was trying to leave in his mother’s car. He later said he was headed to the middle school to shoot more people.Myrick put the .45 in Woodham’s face and ordered him out of the car and on the ground. He held him there for the cops, saving lives.

How might all these incidents have turned out if there had been someone who could have stopped the shooters sooner? I'm guessing the body-count would be a lot lower.

 

[Grenadier]

If we trust our teachers to cultivate the minds of the children, then we should trust them to carry firearms, provided that they can lawfully own and carry them.

Criminals will not obey the laws of the land, and will continue to bring unlawful firearms into areas that prohibit them.

 

[bydand]

This a topic that I have long thought of. Now that I have kids in the public school system my thought have solidified into the "good idea" side. Let me explain, I know the teachers and administrators in our district and know that each of them WOULD put themselves in harms way for any child in the school, give them something to defend themselves (and the children) with. I also think that they would have to have a CCW and follow the rules pertaining to obtaining one. I further think that if they chose that option they would need to keep it ON THEIR PERSON, only because as a kid, I could get into any locked drawer or cabnet in a classroom. A purse or drawer is not a safe place to keep a firearm when there are kids around. A good idea would be the district mandating a "combat course" to those employees who chose to carry while working, just so they have a bit more training to handle a situation that might arise in a crowded building sitting. MY .02 only.

 

[KenpoTex]

I also think that they would have to have a CCW and follow the rules pertaining to obtaining one.

this goes without saying...

I further think that if they chose that option they would need to keep it ON THEIR PERSON, only because as a kid, I could get into any locked drawer or cabnet in a classroom. A purse or drawer is not a safe place to keep a firearm when there are kids around.

Definately. Not only is keeping the weapon on their person safer, it's really the only practical way to respond to an attack. The weapon will do you no good if it's in your purse or locked in a drawer when the stuff hits the fan.

A good idea would be the district mandating a "combat course" to those employees who chose to carry while working, just so they have a bit more training to handle a situation that might arise in a crowded building sitting. MY .02 only.

also a good suggestion.

 

[SFC JeffJ]

Does anyone know of an incident that occured at a public school where someone with a CCW used their weapon inapropriately?

Jeff

 

[bydand]

Does anyone know of an incident that occured at a public school where someone with a CCW used their weapon inapropriately?

Jeff

I cannot think of a single time, but in this day of lawsuits a bit of extra training might be a bit of extra "insurance" showing that the district did things to the best of their ability.

 

[Kacey]

Being a public school teacher myself, I do not want a gun, nor do I want guns present in the school. The only person in my school who carries a gun is our School Resource Officer, who is a police officer in the local precinct. Having guns would have several negative effects that concern me:

- the risk of accident
- the risk of leaving them somewhere
- too many teachers will be unable/unwilling to meet carry requirements, and having some teachers have CCW and some not could cause more problems than it solves; who's going to keep track?
- school violence has been dropping for some time although bullying is on the rise
- makes the students less comfortable in the school setting - this one is the key for me. Students need to feel safe in schools, and too many of my students see guns at home - some have even been shot at - and I am not interested in adding that level of insecurity to my students' lives.

 

[Ceicei]

Utah does allow for carry with CCW permits onto public school properties. However, administrators of these public schools often strongly discourage their faculty from doing so. They do ask CCW parents to report when they carry, but law does not reqiure this; most parents will carry anyway without reporting (or leave their weapons in cars/at home).

It was very difficult to get this part passed and clarified in Utah Code a few years ago regarding public schools.

It was not too long ago court facilities were required to provide gun lockers for those who CCW. Even with this, there is still quite a bit of resistance. This point is good for another thread though.

- Ceicei

 

[KenpoTex]

Utah does allow for carry with CCW permits onto public school properties. However, administrators of these public schools often strongly discourage their faculty from doing so. They do ask CCW parents to report when they carry, but law does not reqiure this; most parents will carry anyway without reporting (or leave their weapons in cars/at home).

Interesting...it sounds like Utah has pretty decent CCW laws overall?

 

[Ceicei]

Interesting...it sounds like Utah has pretty decent CCW laws overall?

Well, Utah is very pro-hunting, so that helps. Some legislators are quite friendly to RKBA and CCW issues. So far, the State legislature continues in this direction. There are many very good laws, but we still do have quite a few bad ones we are trying to amend or remove. We do have some success and failures in the legislative areas.

For example: Used to be that guns are allowed in just about any church/religious places, but now the law was changed to show if churches/religious places post notification of not allowing guns [on the BCI website], guns are now prohibited from these specific churches. This too, is an issue worthy of another thread.

- Ceicei

 

[Drac]

Being a public school teacher myself, I do not want a gun, nor do I want guns present in the school. The only person in my school who carries a gun is our School Resource Officer, who is a police officer in the local precinct

As an LEO I think we will soon see the day where EVERY school has a Resource Officer.. Its a sad comment on our times, but some of these teens and pre-teen are un-controllable..The local PD responds to the High School at least twice a month for assault on teacher calls..Some big 6'-2'' 250lbs male decides that the teacher "dissed" him and attackes some 5'1"" 110 lbs female teacher..And as much as some of these "gang-banger-wannabe-ganstas NEED a painful lesson..Life for the teacher in the aftermath of a shooting would be hell...

 

[jks9199]

- school violence has been dropping for some time although bullying is on the rise

Isn't that a bit of a semantic change? Bullying is a form of violence, right?

It's kind of like police departments that don't have a gang problem... just problems with groups of people associating together to commit crimes and graffiti.

 

[Drac]

It's kind of like police departments that don't have a gang problem... just problems with groups of people associating together to commit crimes and graffiti.

Did some department actually make such an asinine remark?????

 

[Kacey]

As an LEO I think we will soon see the day where EVERY school has a Resource Officer.. Its a sad comment on our times, but some of these teens and pre-teen are un-controllable..The local PD responds to the High School at least twice a month for assault on teacher calls..Some big 6'-2'' 250lbs male decides that the teacher "dissed" him and attackes some 5'1"" 110 lbs female teacher..And as much as some of these "gang-banger-wannabe-ganstas NEED a painful lesson..Life for the teacher in the aftermath of a shooting would be hell...

Actually, we love our SRO, and he prevents quite a few problems in both the school and the community, because students become accustomed to seeing him and his counterparts in other schools as non-threatening members of the community, rather than solely as enforcement, and they are reporting concerns much sooner than before officers were placed - thereby reducing crime by increasing preventive reporting. It's rare that our SRO is needed for fights, and I don't recall the last assault (as separate from spontaneous fights) - and I've been in the same building for 10 years.

Isn't that a bit of a semantic change? Bullying is a form of violence, right?

It's kind of like police departments that don't have a gang problem... just problems with groups of people associating together to commit crimes and graffiti.

Sorry, I wasn't clear - bullying (which is indeed violence, but of a different nature) is on the rise, but weapon-related violence is dropping. Much of the rise in bullying, however, is not due to an actual increase, but to a greater understanding of what behaviors are actually bullying, and a decreasing acceptance of such behaviors - which, in my opinion, are part of why the more-traditionally reported forms of violence are dropping; bullying is a "gateway" violent behavior, and nipping it early prevents more violence later.

 

[bydand]

As an LEO I thiink we will soon see the day where EVERY school has a Resource Officer.. Its a sad comment on our times, but some of these teens and pre-teen are un-controllable..The local PD responses to the High School at least twice a month for assault on teacher calls..Some big 6'-2'' 250lbs male decides that the teacher "dissed" him and attackes some 5'1"" 110 lbs female teacher..And as much as some of these "gang-banger-wannabe-ganstas NEED a painful lesson..Life for the teacher in the aftermath of a shooting would be hell...

I agree that the teacher who actually HAD to use a weapon would be in for a hard time, there is also that added protection of just having a weapon. That 250# male would be a bit more reserved if they knew that the 110# female teacher could send him out of school with a few more holes in him that when he arrived. The knowledge that several people in the building could do the same, even if the teacher themselves didn't have a weapon, would be a strong distraction from violence. As sad as it is to say, violence and violent people are detered only by others who CAN (not are) be more distructive than themselves. IMHO

It all boils down to easy targets, when I was in school EVERYBODY carried a knife, some folding pocket types, others sheathed hunting style. did anybody use them against somebody else? Not that I ever even heard about. Was there fights, sure, but really not too many. Now that schools have strict no weapons of any type policies, those who don't live by the rules have easy targets because they are the only ones armed with either knifes or firearms. Take away that advantage and instead of playgrounds and hallways turning into combat zones, I truely think the violence would go down. Nobody wants to start a fight of any kind that there is a chance they are not going to win it.

 

[Ceicei]

Not too long ago, petitions were passed around to put the issue of prohibiting guns in public schools before the legislature. This was attempted state-wide three separate times, but at each of those drives, they failed to muster enough signatures from the public.

This says something....

- Ceicei

 

[bydand]

Kacey, I totally respect your position and am not the wild/fanatical person some of my posts come across as. I am not saying every teacher, adminstrator, staff member should carry. Just that it would cut down on the number of these type crimes. As you stated in your last post, the number of weapon related violence is dropping in your district because of the presences of your SRO. Just what we have been discussing, in action. I think SRO's are a great idea, but not all districts can justify them. Our district has a hard time keeping the lights and heat on most years, hiring an additional person would kill our budget. We have a very large freshmen class this year with a whopping 33 students. (not per class/ the entire class) That will give you a reference to the size of school we have here. The largest high school in the area has a graduating class of 125 usually. We simply cannot afford to hire SRO's who cannot also teach or fulfill another position in the school they serve.

 

[Drac]

Actually, we love our SRO, and he prevents quite a few problems in both the school and the community, I don't recall the last assault (as separate from spontaneous fights) - and I've been in the same building for 10 years.

That great...The SRO's up here show up to their school posts in almost SWAT gear..BDU's, Boots, etc..etc...They wear top of the line body armor that is stab and shot resistant..THey know all the "little darlings" by name as well as their parents names...

 

[Kacey]

Kacey, I totally respect your position and am not the wild/fanatical person some of my posts come across as. I am not saying every teacher, adminstrator, staff member should carry. Just that it would cut down on the number of these type crimes. As you stated in your last post, the number of weapon related violence is dropping in your district because of the presences of your SRO. Just what we have been discussing, in action. I think SRO's are a great idea, but not all districts can justify them. Our district has a hard time keeping the lights and heat on most years, hiring an additional person would kill our budget. We have a very large freshmen class this year with a whopping 33 students. (not per class/ the entire class) That will give you a reference to the size of school we have here. The largest high school in the area has a graduating class of 125 usually. We simply cannot afford to hire SRO's who cannot also teach or fulfill another position in the school they serve.

Actually, the district doesn't pay for the SROs in our schools. They have proved to be such a positive influence that they are paid for by the police department, which has seen a decrease in crimes by children and teens, and, to a lesser extent in the community - especially among the community members who attended schools which had SROs. The decrease appears to be due, at least in part, to the newly emerging perception among those students and former students who went to schools with SROs that the police are, indeed, there to help, and are approachable - as opposed to a conflicting public opinion that officers are only there to interefere in peoples' private lives, and that no one in their right mind would approach an officer under any circumstances.

In addition, our SRO (and most of the others) also replace our truant officer, a position that was cut for budgetary reasons - which means the truant kids are in schools - not the community - during the day, when they would otherwise be getting into trouble - because the SROs will perform home visits and bring truant students to school, sometimes kicking and screaming - and will enforce the idea that they need to be in school, unless they - and their parents - want to be somewhere considerably less pleasant. The reduction in crime with these students in the building has, in large part, provided the ability for the department to provide SROs to schools - because they're not out looking for kids who are shoplifting, destorying/defacing property, breaking and entering, and so on, during the school day.

That great...The SRO's up here show up to their school posts in almost SWAT gear..BDU's, Boots, etc..etc...They wear top of the line body armor that is stab and shot resistant..THey know all the "little darlings" by name as well as their parents names...

SROs in my district wear the same full uniform as any other patrol officer - which includes weapons, bulletproof vest (under the shirt) and walky-talkies - but that's it. They know the kids in their school because they often spend lunches in the cafeteria, getting to know the kids who don't get in trouble as well as checking on the ones who do - and providing positive encouragement to those who are staying out of trouble, such as rewards for attendance.

 

[Lisa]

This is a very interesting debate.

Not having this in my community. We have no armed Police/SRO's or security officers of any kind in our public school system, I wonder how the parent's react to such an idea?

I don't think it would pass here to be honest, at least not at this time, althought the idea does have merit in my opinion.