Gun Disarm, Pistol Front

[8253]

i still think the best way is to step to the side while sweeping the gun to the opposite side while grabbing the wrist and hand and just giving it a good twist up. Then when you pull backwards the gun should be pointed upwards. He should have a hard time trying to get the weapon with that hand considering his wrist should be broke. It is still always better not to have to come to that and just give them all of your posessions that they want. If they are going to kill you however, what the heck, you might as well go down fighting.

 

[MJS]

Right! The strike to the face will cause the attacker to take a step back and to pull is arm back. Guess what the gun will center on you even if you drop him. Lets face it we are not Mike Tyson. Rarely are you going to drop someone with the strikes you discribe the very first time. Now if you hit him in the throat or the vegas nerve you may knock him out right away. But he will still step back. What to you do if he ducks your punch. He then may turn and punch you or grapple with you. Your hand grab technique leaves you in a bad position for recovery if you miss. Ed

First off, the strikes are not intended to 'drop' the attacker, they are intended to momentarily stun or take his attention away from his initial attack. The KM disarms usually do a few strikes only and then do the disarm. I agree with Tulisan on this one. Being able to follow and move with the attacker is key. We can sit here all day and go over the "what ifs" and that is why you need to be able to flow from one thing to the other. If something isnt working, you should have a back up plan.

And if you think about it, the same can be said for the disarm that you posted. One thing that I am a huge advocate of is aliveness. Making sure that its part of your training is key!!! Now, whats to say that the attacker is going to stand there and let you apply your arm lock to him??? Do you not think that as soon as you start to move in, hes not going to see this and start to pull back himself??? That is the reason why I talk about the strike.....to give him something to think about. The body is a wonderful machine. That said, it will do what it has to do to protect itself. Whats the first thing that everybody does when its icy outside and they start to fall? Tense up and prepare for the fall! If something is suddenly coming at your face? The normal reaction is to put your hands up. Have you ever got anything in your eye? Maybe an eyelash or small foreign body such as sand/dirt? I have. And the first thing I did, was bring my hands up to my eye. My FMA instructor was doing some techs in his class. His inst. accidentally poked him in the eye. What did he do??? Immediately stop what he was doing, and bring his hands to his eye. All of the above are normal human reactions.

Mike

 

[Bester]

See also: http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5659 for a different perspective from the CQC crowd.

 

[Bod]

My answer:

If you must strike for an armbar, and I do, apply your strike to the side and back of the head. Examples of this would be a palm strike to the base of the skull, a chop to the neck, a left hook or an elbow to the side/back of head, I'm aiming for the base of the skull with my elbow, but I usually get the ear.

The opp. reacts to the side or bends forward, if he ducks, it is also in the same direction, breaking his balance. The important thing is to get the body against the arm following the strike, so I prefer a circular strike (like the elbow) bringing my body in.

 

[MJS]

See also: http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5659 for a different perspective from the CQC crowd.

WOW!! WOW!! WOW!!!! And I thought that we had some harsh folks on this forum!!!DAMN!!!! Those guys pulled no punches, but the more I read, the more I agreed with what they said. Considering there are soooooooo many arts out there that teach gun, knife, etc. of course, the students of those arts are going to defend tooth and nail, their techs. However, to come on a forum and tell people that their methods suck, and that one way is the only way....well that IMO, is not right at all!!! I did like the close up pic. of the tech. though. Many good points brought up there as well. People on that forum did bring up some good points about the control aspect of that tech. No, seeing as how there is such an issue with control, if you really look at pics. 1 and 2, it does leave room for the attacker to pull out of that grip, as well as throwing a strike of his own.

Very interesting.

Mike

 

[MJS]

And...while we are on the topic of weapons, I thought I'd bring this to the table. If you look further on that forum, you'll notice a link, still on the same thread as the gun, only this one is a knife tech against a slash. VERY poor to say the least!!!!! Thinking that you're going to stop a slash with your forearm??? Come on man!!! That is opening yourself up for the knifer to continue his slash right down your arm! I also train in the FMA's and there are many others on this forum who do also, and I think that they will agree with me on that one. There is no control of the weapon at all!

Mike

 

[Cruentus]

Right! The strike to the face will cause the attacker to take a step back and to pull is arm back. Guess what the gun will center on you even if you drop him. Lets face it we are not Mike Tyson. Rarely are you going to drop someone with the strikes you discribe the very first time. Now if you hit him in the throat or the vegas nerve you may knock him out right away. But he will still step back. What to you do if he ducks your punch. He then may turn and punch you or grapple with you. Your hand grab technique leaves you in a bad position for recovery if you miss. Ed

Oh I see. This isn't just about sharing a technique (which is an effective technique, btw) and learning and sharing about different methods, it's more about, "My way is better then your way...you way must be wrong." Hey, when we're done with this conversation, maybe we can discuss who we think has the bigger weennie, and how my waggling method is better then yours?

Never mind, save the vasaline for another time, cause' I'm outta this thread.

Have a great day. :bird:

 

[KenpoTess]

Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

~Tess
-MT Moderator-

 

[Bod]

Some of their attacks were fair but, I'm pretty sure the full twist and upper body contact on the opp's upper arm would unbalance the opp.. It's just very hard to have photos taken off balance. I add the trip just to make sure. This has the advantage of lowering my own body.

The opp. certainly cannot hand the weapon to his other hand. At full speed the opp's arm is moving outward, away from his non-weapon hand.

If they are really proposing a kote gaeshi type movement I'd be suspicious. The only reason I'd see this as correct is to defend colleagues behind you, by redirecting the aim upwards. Who cares about a wrestling match in this situation, because your colleagues could also move in.

Such a situation would make an armbar dangerous, because the opponent could be shooting everyone except you. But as a self defence technique or military technique the armbar may indeed be appropriate, since it works against just about any 'one hand forward' attack, provided the opp. is on, or to the right of your center line (opp's right arm forward), or his arm is at an angle that presents his shoulder to you, rather than his chest .

If that sounds complicated then I'll put it this way: Opp has one hand forward and is presenting you even a little of his outside, then the technique can work.

When all is said and done, I do not practice gun defences, so cannot pontificate on the finer points. However if I was training gun disarms as a team (can't think why, given that I'm a database designer in London) I would probably go for shove the arm in the air while my mates bundle in.

 

[Cruentus]

And...fur crying out loud, your not even doing the technique in a way that would be effective (The attacker is still balanced, and the wrist isn't controlled well).

Sorry. Outta here again. I just needed to disclaimer my original statement of the technique being a good one after further observation.

 

[MJS]

Keep in mind that there are counters to everything as well. Anytime you're executing an armbar, wrist lock, etc. you need to make sure that you're doing it right. The attacker isnt going to just stand there and let you do it. Thats why, once again, I bring up the point of doing something to get his attn. off of what you're doing! One possible counter would be to just bend your elbow. In addition, I'm not crazy about letting this guy get behind me. Why do I want to start turning my back to him??? I also noticed, and I think some others brought this up as well, but there is nothing being taken into consideration about bystanders. Do you really want to shoot someone else just to save your own life?? What if that someone was your wife??

Mike

 

[lonewolf12563]

Talking about field of fire. Notice the gun in my picture is pointed at 6 o'clock. During the sequence it stays at 6 o'clock. I you use the twist method the gun crosses three o'clock to 12 o'clock. That is a hugh field of fire. Granted it is fast but where is the control. This armbar technique works for two handed gun grips. The twist method does not.
The knife technique show was an upstrike and an elbow shot all about the same time. Again take for granted these are staged photos and there is not one book out there that you can not critic for this position or that. You have to fill in the voids with your experience. An armbar is an armbar. No reinvention here. I just feel I have more control than the typical gun disarms that are presently taught.
I have to thank the folks at budoseek for their hospitaliy..all three of them. I hope this forum is better. Ed

 

[MJS]

Talking about field of fire. Notice the gun in my picture is pointed at 6 o'clock. During the sequence it stays at 6 o'clock. I you use the twist method the gun crosses three o'clock to 12 o'clock. That is a hugh field of fire. Granted it is fast but where is the control. This armbar technique works for two handed gun grips. The twist method does not.

I guess where this is going is that there is no re-direction. What about someone standing behind you?? That is not taken into consideration. The KM disarm also works for the 2 handed grip.


The knife technique show was an upstrike and an elbow shot all about the same time.[/quote]

Then the elbow and block ALL should have been in the same photo. Regardless, its crazy to think that that elbow will stop the guys slash. Do you really want to take that chance?? I know I dont!!! Through out the entire tech. there is NO control whatsoever.

Again take for granted these are staged photos and there is not one book out there that you can not critic for this position or that.

You think so?? And if thats the case, thats why I dont rely on a book to tech me a disarm.

You have to fill in the voids with your experience. An armbar is an armbar. No reinvention here. I just feel I have more control than the typical gun disarms that are presently taught.

Like I said...there are many disarms. To think that one or to say that one is the best....well, I dont think I need to tell you what that does.

I have to thank the folks at budoseek for their hospitaliy..all three of them. I hope this forum is better. Ed

Well, IMO, and from what I've learned on these forums, you'll get back what you give. When you pretty much just come out and totally put down EVERYTHING that everybody else does, only to say that your method is the best...well again, I shouldnt have to show you the examples, you should be able to see them yourself. This forum is very good. But, you need to keep an openmind.

Just a thought.

Mike

 

[lonewolf12563]

Control of what ? Do you advocate grabbing the knife hand? Ed

 

[lonewolf12563]

Just to add I will asume that KM means Krav Maga. Krav Maga has the same counter knife entry that I do except they use a vertical punch. They also use alot of kicks to defend the knife which I think just prolongs the event. Their gun disarms are the grab the gun first push away type affair which I do not believe is a very reliable technique. They have alot of strikes with poor grips on the weapon hand. ie underhand forearm pin. Very easy to slip out.Especialy when reacting to geting elbowed in the face as shown. I have trained with Kapap guys and they laugh at the Krav Maga guys. They think they are Tiger Shulmans.
So each is to own. I belive it is important to first take out the attacker as fast as possible remembering that your strikes will cause him to move in certain ways. Atemi Waza. And controlling a dominate body position is priority. None of which I see in KM. Their techniques just look like head hunting to me. Ed

 

[bluenosekenpo]

They also use alot of kicks to defend the knife which I think just prolongs the event. Their gun disarms are the grab the gun first push away type affair which I do not believe is a very reliable technique. They have alot of strikes with poor grips on the weapon hand. ie underhand forearm pin. Very easy to slip out.Especialy when reacting to geting elbowed in the face as shown. I belive it is important to first take out the attacker as fast as possible remembering that your strikes will cause him to move in certain ways. Atemi Waza. And controlling a dominate body position is priority. None of which I see in KM. Their techniques just look like head hunting to me. Ed

:asian: ok then, the km system has been used in, real life or death, battlefield conditions. yours?
:asian: do i agree with all of their techniques? nope.
:asian: do i agree with all kenpo or jkd or fma techniques? nope.
:asian: skeptacism is a good thing, allowing your style or technique to be scrutinized is beneficial to you and your friends online(that's us by the way).
:asian: honest input can only help on your journey.
:asian: i believe that you may make this tech work for you, but in my reality, it won't.
keep posting, just keep an open mind, you may read something that will move you to reconsider a belief that you thought was above reproach.

 

[MJS]

Control of what ? Do you advocate grabbing the knife hand? Ed

Ummm..YEAH!! You need to gain control of the weapon hand ASAP. If you dont, you're allowing the weapon to continue to move freely, and strike/slash at you. Its certainly MUCH better than doing an overhead block and thinking that it'll stop the knife atttack!!

Mike

 

[MJS]

Just to add I will asume that KM means Krav Maga. Krav Maga has the same counter knife entry that I do except they use a vertical punch. They also use alot of kicks to defend the knife which I think just prolongs the event. Their gun disarms are the grab the gun first push away type affair which I do not believe is a very reliable technique. They have alot of strikes with poor grips on the weapon hand. ie underhand forearm pin. Very easy to slip out.Especialy when reacting to geting elbowed in the face as shown. I have trained with Kapap guys and they laugh at the Krav Maga guys. They think they are Tiger Shulmans.
So each is to own. I belive it is important to first take out the attacker as fast as possible remembering that your strikes will cause him to move in certain ways. Atemi Waza. And controlling a dominate body position is priority. None of which I see in KM. Their techniques just look like head hunting to me. Ed

Well, from what I've seen of the KM disarms, they seem good to me. Yours on the other hand....if you dont see the possibilities of escape, then I dont know what else to tell ya!!! Try training with a little aliveness pal, and then maybe you'll see what works and what doesnt! To think that the person is gonna stand there while you attempt that armbar you do, is foolish thinking at it best. In addition, you're turning your back to the attacker, which IMO, is another foolish thing to do.

As for the knife defenses....The best that I've seen come from the FMA's. IMO, nobody trains a knife better than the Filipinos!!! I'm not too impressed with the KM knife defenses. Have I trained them? Yes. Am I crazy about them? Yes/No.

Mike

 

[lonewolf12563]

This gun disarm was and is taught in the Army. That is where I learned it. So mmm...Yes it is really used in real life. Krav Maga was not. It is the civilian version of military CQC.The Isrealis that I know tell me it is not close to what they learned. KM is karate and judo combined. Two sports. But that is what they said.
So go a head and grab the knife hand. With one hand I will easily pull it out. Grab the knife hand with two hands and you will eat the fist from the other hand. By Grabbing the knife hand you are doing nothing to shut down the attacker.Which is your primary goal. The stun shot to do a wrist break is tv horse crap in my opinion.
By the way I was attacked with a screw driver and I used the same upstrike to the radial nerve as in the photos. I knocked the screw driver out of the perps hand. So yes it does work. No difference with a knife. Big mistake to fear the blade and it's supposed slashing power. It is not a sword. Which Kali was primarily invented for. I say again the knife is not a sword. You will survive a slash attack.Stabbing is what kills. So continual striking the attacker untill he shuts down is your best bet. Shut down the attacker he will not be able to use his tool ( Knife ,machette ect). Above reproach?
Thats funny. MJS I belive your quote on the BJJ street fighting question was "But then again, it does not have to be something fancy to work right!"
A little two faced? Ed

 

[Bester]

Ed,
You claim your technique is taught in the army.
Where? Basic, special seminars? etc?

From what I’ve heard of army training, the quality does vary, and that “hand-2-hand” is not taught the basic ‘grunts’. What branch and at what point is this taught?

Individuals who are either currently or previously involved in various branches of the military repeatedly contradicted you on Budoseek..

Over there you make wide, blanket statements such as "Yes I have actually disarmed a weapon from someone but it wasn't a pistol it was an AK47 in El Salvador.", "By the way Taekwon do is crap." and more.

Every art, system, style and interpretation has its "watered down" flavor and its "hardcore" flavor. Such blanket statements as yours show little understanding of the arts.

A post over there "http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=48333&postcount=16" summed things up better than I can.

I did however enjoy your claim of being an Army instructor. "I was teaching that course for years in the Army".

I am forced to wonder if you have any real credentials, or are just another wannabe who slapped a bunch of things together, made up a name, scribbled some crayon on some parchment and opened a mcdojo to rook the unsuspecting public.

I challenge you to prove me wrong.

A consensus seems to be that the stuff you teach is from a fantasyland at best, deadly to the user at worst.

Shame on you.

You got banned over there for being a jerk as well as a fraud. You’re very lucky this board doesn’t immediately boot either. Maybe you’ll stick around long enough to get an education.

Or, maybe you’ll take the suggestion of visiting http://www.selfdefenseforums.com/ . I doubt you will though. People like you rarely go where they would be shown to be wrong by an educated group. You claimed you made your “technique” work. Anyone can get lucky once. Too many brave men and women paid the price when some wannabe taught them a crap technique.

Its that old saying “if it quacks like a duck…”

Quack Quack.


I'll stick to studying arts that have been proven consistantly to work in battle, the street and the real world. Not just in a studio while posing for pretty pictures.