Gun Disarm, Pistol Front

[psi_radar]

As for the tech. in question.....Personally, I'd rather do a counterstrike as you're doing the redirection. By not doing so, theres a good chance that the attacker is going to have time to react to what you're doing. Give him something else to think about while you're doing the disarm.

Mike

A right FTS to the lower shin at step 2 would be nice, followed by a snapping heel kick to the face while securing the arm bar should keep him thinking.

What were you thinking of?

 

[MJS]

A right FTS to the lower shin at step 2 would be nice, followed by a snapping heel kick to the face while securing the arm bar should keep him thinking.

What were you thinking of?

If you'll notice in KM, as they are redirecting the gun, they are also going forward with a hit to the face.

I was thinking of doing that 'distraction' ASAP, so it takes his mind off of what you're trying to do and makes him think about the hit he just took. I use the same idea when teaching wrist grab defenses. If a much larger person is grabbing you, strength may play a part. Therefore, if you're standing there, trying to do that armbar defense, the bad guy is gonna be standing there laughing and pounding you. Start off with a kick to the shin to take his mind off of your arm and onto his leg. Its that split second distraction that just might make a difference.

It looks like we're both on the same page here! :asian:

Mike

 

[kenpo2dabone]

I have seen this exact technique used for a defense against a thrusting edged weapon attack or a thrusting blunt weapon attack. I would probably not use it for any of them including tha gun. As an edged weapon defense and a blunt weapon defense I simply don't like ending up on my back on the ground. There is no account for a potential multi attacker scenario. As a gun technique there is no account for inoscent bystanders. Notice that when the attackee moves offline that gun is still pointing straight ahead. If the attacker pulled the trigger as a reaction to the attackees movement then he just shot the attackees wife or child or some stranger who happened to be passing by. The gun needs to be deflected as you move off line and the safest place to deflect the gun with the least potential for a bystander to catch a bullet is up. There is a high probability that if you move in a manner other than what the attacker is expecting or asking (give me your wallet; put up your hands and so forth) then he will pull that trigger. Ya, you got out of the way but who's chest did the bullet land in.

I appreciate the post. It makes for good discussion and it is definately hard to put ones self out for criticism. I applaude you for that Lonewolf but I would not do this technique, especially against a gun attack. If I get a chance I will try and post some pictures of what we do in the UKF against this type of attack. To put it in words would take all day. However, if I get some time today I will try and write it out as well.

Salute,
Mike Miller UKF

 

[lonewolf12563]

If by exsample you grab and strike the gun wielder, like krav maga teaches, he will step back, pulling the gun with him. When two people grab and pull with a gun, the gun will center on you. Bang your dead. Ed

 

[psi_radar]

Strikes could be useful in this situation but you're right, the wrong ones could cause unwanted reaction, such as the BG pulling away after an eye spear when you're trying to stay in tight.

Which is why I'd be more inclined to do the low shin kick. Painful, and will most likely cause a destabilizing action rather than a withdrawal. I would make sure to have that gun hand secured first, though.

I think Mike Miller also has a very good point concerning the moral implications of this technique in a public place. The nature of the technique almost insures the firing of a couple rounds at waist to chest height. You might be safe but the others around you may not. Congrats on the technique, though. It does take cajones to post your work for criticism.

 

[MJS]

If by exsample you grab and strike the gun wielder, like krav maga teaches, he will step back, pulling the gun with him. When two people grab and pull with a gun, the gun will center on you. Bang your dead. Ed

And if he steps back, you can still follow him. Keep in mind, that after a few strikes, KM then disarms the gun from the hand. You can still follow him as he goes back. In addition, I would tend to think that he's going to be thinking about the strikes hitting his face, not retaining the gun.

As I said before, I would tend to think that if you did not do something to get his mind off the attempted disarm, that would give him a chance to counter your move.

Mike

 

[Tgace]

Pound all you want on the BG and he may not even feel it. Kick him in the grion and he may just laugh at you. While Im not saying go for the gun right away everytime, you better get control of that weapon and soon. Most real life disarms ive seen in dashboard cams, bank footage etc. were gun grabs. Heck most cops that are shot with their own guns are from gun grabs, so it works for the BG's.

 

[Cruentus]

Hi, many of the techniques taught today invlove grabbing the gun hand, deflecting the gun and doing a wrist twist for the disarm. In my opinion this is a dangerous technique.
First the probability of you grabbing someones hand under high threat, real situation is very low. Second by grabbing the hand or attempting to, you are not effectively controling the field of fire nor the attackers body.
In the technique of the month on my web site I show a better method of controling the gun, field of fire and the attackers body. Check it out. Thanks Ed
www.lonewolfjujutsu.com

I liked the disarm, and that is one I use.

:asian:

 

[Tgace]

Id be willing to bet that if you were in a life and death struggle over a handgun, you may not even notice cuts, burns etc from the thing going off. Heck you may not even notice a finger being shot off or of being shot until your vision starts to blur and your legs get weak...adrenline does funny things like that. Anyway, I like some of Jim Wagners stuff...heres an article of his from

http://www.jimwagnertraining.com/articles/CT_Up_Against_A_Gun.htm

Up Against A Gun

Sergeant Jim Wagner​

Recently I was in London, England training police officers survival tactics in patrol and undercover situations (the course was titled High Risk Patrol Tactics). The interesting thing about the police in the United Kingdom is that they do not carry guns on duty. The average officer is armed with nothing more than a baton and a small can of CS gas. Obviously for those incidents involving suspects with firearms, patrol officers can radio for help and a special police unit, known as a Trojan Team, will come to their aid armed to the teeth. Yet, the majority of the Police Constables (PC) working the streets are “unarmed.”

In my class I posed this question to my UK students, “Who is trained in the use of firearms?” Only 20% of the hands went up. I was surprised that more hands had not shot up. I had expected more, especially in their profession. Instead, the percentage of those untrained in firearms was more consistent to what one would find in a civilian martial arts class on continental Europe or back home in the States.

I selected two Police Constables and set up a standard training scenario for them. Their objective was to approach me, the “suspect,” and arrest me. Simple enough.

As the they walked up to me, and ordered me to stop, I pulled out a replica Smith & Wesson 5904 semi-automatic, magazine fed, air cooled, blow-back, pistol and aimed it at them from 15 feet (4.5 meters) away. They stopped dead in their tracks and I told them in a loud determined voice to put their hands up in the air. I could tell that neither Police Constable had ever had a gun pointed at them before, not even in a training scenario. I had them right where I wanted them. They were too far to attempt a disarm, nor did they even attempt to try one. I ordered them to turn around and face away from me. Often times criminals make their victims turn away from them so they don’t have to look them in the eyes. This makes it easier for the criminal to beat or shoot his victims by removing the “human element” by not looking at them. They did exactly as I told them. Just by merely having a gun in my hand they submitted totally to my demands; like most citizens would. I therefore ordered them to their knees, and then promptly “executed” both of them. They were notably upset.

Now, before you criticize the lack of defense on the part of these two Police Constables, let me preface this by saying that most civilian martial artists that I have done this to fare no better. In fact, I have found in my research that the majority of martial artists, when faced with this same combat situation, will actually force the suspect into shooting them even before the suspect intends to do so. The average martial artist feels compelled to attempt a disarm, no matter the distance, based upon their prior training. There are a few reasons for this:

• Gun disarm techniques are typically taught within grabbing distance (also known as Extreme Close Range) Thus, if an attacker is just beyond this distance students tend to move toward the attacker in order to “close the gap.” The attacker naturally reacts to this aggression either through sympathetic reflex (accidentally pulling the trigger as a result of being startled and inducing involuntary muscle contraction) or through self-defense (the attacker interprets the advance as a threat).
• Most civilian martial arts programs do not include defensive tactics against guns at Close Quarters Combat (CQB) range (distances from point blank range, usually beyond reach, out to distances found within the interior of buildings or other structures).

Looking down the barrel



Most people assume that there is nothing they can do if an attacker is holding a gun on them who is beyond disarming reach. Thus, they submit hoping the person will get closer or perhaps decides not shoot them. However, submitting to anyone who is armed leaves you with absolutely no guarantees. My own personal philosophy is NEVER A HOSTAGE. The best course of action, if you are not close enough to attempt a disarm, is to immediately turn to the right or the left and run away perpendicular or diagonally to the shooter.

If you run directly toward the shooter hoping to overpower him, or you run in a straight line away (a retreat), you become what we call a NO VALUE MOVING TARGET. Although you may be moving as fast as you can, in the weapon sights of the suspect you are technically in the same position – you’re just either getting larger or smaller in his “sight picture” (when the front sight and the rear sight of the pistol are lined up on the target). Therefore, all the suspect has to do is take aim once and keep firing in a straight line, in the same direction, increasing the likelihood of a hit or multiple hits.

On the other hand, if you take off running to your left or right, and keep moving, you become a FULL VALUE MOVING TARGET, which means that the shooter has to keep moving his gun in order to “track” you. Constant movement means more chances of error. Even most firearms trained personnel, both in law enforcement and the military, have trouble hitting “movers.” It takes a lot of practice to become proficient at learning to “lead” (find the aim point in front of the target so the target and the projectile intersect at the same instant), and it is definitely a “perishable skill.”

If it is difficult for most “professionals” to hit lateral moving targets, how much more so is it for civilians. There are very few civilian pistol ranges in the world that have sideways moving targets. Most gun ranges are set up in lanes, designed for shooters to fire at a fixed centerline (NO VALUE MOVING TARGETS). Even most criminals, when practicing their shooting skills in isolated areas, will set up static targets and shoot at them, because it takes a lot of preplanning and reliable equipment to having moving targets.

If you run from your gun totting attacker diagonally, either to the left or right, you become a HALF VALUE MOVING TARGET. You will still be more difficult to hit, but because you are moving closer to a NO VALUE position, you will also become easier to track. Again, the goal is to prevent the shooter from getting a “bead” (his gun sights) on you my forcing the weapon to move, which is inherently less stable.



Don’t believe everything you see



As a society we’ve been conditioned by Hollywood movies in thinking that if we get shot that we’re going to be instantly incapacitated or die. Even in police briefing rooms across North America there is an ongoing joke that goes like this, “A bad guy can get shot multiple times and live, but an officer gets shot only once and dies.” Why do they say this? Yes, it’s true that a few officers have been killed with only on bullet, but many more officers have been shot with one bullet and have survived. Yet, because of a few incidents the majority still buys into the lie, as if it were the norm. Needless to say, what do you think will happen to most officers if they do happen to catch that one bullet? I’ll tell you what will happen. Many officers will die because they will have already lost the battle mentally because of a fictitious proverb, and not on the facts.

The reality is that only 10% of all gunshot wounds are fatal. That means that if you get shot, statistically you have a 90% chance of surviving it. Even if the bad guy is able to hit you as a moving target, the odds are in your favor that it won’t be fatal.

I always tell my students, “It will take 100 rounds to take me out.” I have to tell myself this to reprogram myself from years of listening to defeatist fellow officers. Whether it is true or not, mental conditioning for combat is everything to insure self-preservation. When I was going through a lengthy sniper course with the 1st Marine Division Scout/Sniper School at Camp Pendleton, California I will never forget the words painted on one of the beams of the classroom that has motivated me to this day. It reads, “Sweat dries, blood clots, bones heal – positive mental attitude.” To me, it says it all.



“Gun play” in the dojo



As a martial artist you can incorporate these gun survival tactics in your own training. There are two ways to go about it. First is through DRY FIRE DRILLS, and the second method is through PAINT MARKING PISTOLS.

To practice escaping a pistol wielding suspect will only require a replica firearm. Since the distance is beyond the ability to disarm, the replica can be made of any material. When “confronted” by the suspect (the trainer) you will want to run from him when he is speaking to you – giving you orders. If you can make your move mid sentence this will buy you a half second of escape time before the suspect realizes what’s going on. At that moment he can’t speak and shoot at the same time.

To use paint marking pistols in your own training will require some expense. Such a pistol is not considered a firearm by the Alcohol Tobacco & Firearms (ATF) agency, and the same holds true in many other countries. At the end of this week I’m flying to Argentina to train several police SWAT units (G.O.E.). The organizers asked me if I could bring down some paint pistols. After checking with Argentinean Customs I found out that they also do not consider them firearms.

A basic weapons system will consist of a paint gun, paint balls, C02 gas cartridges, facemasks, and neck protection. Such a complete system will start at approximately $200 U.S. and climb from there. I recommend getting a pistol that accepts C02 cartridges instead of bottle fed gas systems since you will require less pressure for this type of training, as opposed to systems use for paint ball fields (the sport).

The purpose of using a paint-marking pistol is to understand the dynamics of what happens in a “fire fight,” and to actually feel the consequences when moving techniques are performed incorrectly. When the paint balls hit, they sting. In addition, if you have someone firing real projectiles at you, you learn quickly to get behind a solid object (known as “cover” in military and police speak) for protection once you have fled from the shooter as a FULL VALUE TARGET.



A lesson learned



Firearms are common tools used by criminals regardless of a country’s laws against them, or many people’s uneasiness around them. Learning how to defend against them is an absolute must for the martial artist.

The two Police Constables that I “executed” at the beginning of my High Risk Patrol course didn’t make the same mistake twice. Later in the class they immediately adopted the FULL VALUE MOVING TARGET method, and now they would never be caught dead again offering themselves up as targets.

Theres also some interesting conversation on this topic at
http://www.hockscqc.com/discus/messages/6/105.html

 

[Bod]

I like that move. It is my primary closing move for fighting, though I do it slightly differently.

I approach by brushing the opponent's leading hand (in this case his right) with my left and then catching it with my right. I do this while stepping off and in to about 10'o'clock. This places my right hand on his right wrist. I've found I cannot grab reliably with the first hand but the second hand almost always makes the catch.

As I am making the catch I am swinging my body around to make contact with the upper arm, my left elbow/forarm is banging into my opponent's neck or head.

Then I step across my opponent's legs, tai-otoshi fashion, but from the outside, and trip or guide to the ground, depending on the justifiable level of force. I've found it possible to throw and remain standing, but going to ground is an option.

I follow this with an optional raking toe-kick to the armpit and then a submission lock, finger break or wrist lock, depending on the justifiable level of force.

I practise this combination primarily as an aggresive response to my opponent's one-hand-foreward stance. The primary move-brush-catch gets me out of the way of the inevitable punch or possible unseen weapon strike from the opponent's backward hand.

If I do not make the wrist catch I move in closing the arm across the body, head-butting, and then throw one way or another. This is dangerous because a concealed/unnoticed knife in the opponent's non-lead hand could stab you.

I have natural follow ups if the opponent resists by bending his arm or running around in a circle away from the initial lock.

I will experiment with turning further into the arm lock and sitting down as the defender is shown doing on the lonewolf website. Why do you do it that way lonewolf? I do the trip because it comes naturally from my judo practise, and allows me to get the attcker on the ground without a full armlock (yes, my armbars aren't my strong point).

Also I cannot see the method for grabbing the arm in the first place, and this is one of the crucial parts. You clearly do your's differently to the way I do mine, as the defender's right palm is holding the inside of the attacker's right wrist. Do you slap and catch into the right, just 'bundle in', or something else? I'm working really hard on getting the initial contact just right, and your input would be appreciated.

Finally I'd like to say the photos are of a great quality, in good light, with the attacker's and defender's shirt colour and skin tone contrasting well. No accident I imagine, when you've also posted a picture of competing judoka in white and controversial blue dogis! But why the camo trousers? They are the bane of photographic clarity, though it is not an issue in these photos.

Cheers for sharing!

 

[lonewolf12563]

Thanks for commenting. As you are familar with judo and waki gatame the inital grab is sort of the same. Except I keep my elbows tight against my body. If you lift your elbows up you will expose light and the attacker will detect the movement faster than if you keep your elbows tight. My hands come up in a V like kotegeshi. As I move in I push a little against the gun arm and twist for the armbar. Remember to push as you move in. If you pull the gun will center on you. Thanks Ed

 

[MJS]

As I move in I push a little against the gun arm and twist for the armbar. Remember to push as you move in. If you pull the gun will center on you. Thanks Ed

Question for you. You mention pushing as you move in. Now in the KM disarm, you are grabbing, striking and moving forward. You stated that if that is done, the gunman will move back, taking the gun with him. Can't the same be said regarding your post?? You're still moving in, and unless you make sure that you have the hands secured, the gunman will most likely be trying to move backwards, away from you.

Mike

 

[lonewolf12563]

That is why I am moving in. I am already ahead of him. Securing the gun arm. In striking you are projecting him away from you with the strike while pulling on the gun. The gun will natually thru leverage center on you. Ed

 

[MJS]

So even though with the KM disarm, they are redirecting it down on an angle, across the opps. body, while moving forward, you're still saying that its going to be able to be pointed at you??

Mike

 

[lonewolf12563]

Try it. Have someone grab your gun arm. Pull and it will go center mass. Ed

 

[Tgace]

If you grab, dont pull.....twist.

 

[MJS]

Try it. Have someone grab your gun arm. Pull and it will go center mass. Ed

All of the Krav disarms that I've seen with the gun in front did not pull. When they begin the move, they are pushing the gun to the side, down on an angle to the ground. The opps. hand is going across his body on an angle.

I think another thing to keep in mind is what the effect/result of a strike to the opp. is going to do. I dont know about you, but the few times that I've been accidentally poked in the eye, I've immediately brought my hand up to my eye. At that time, I wasnt thinking about anything else except if my eye was ok.

The point of this----If during that initial disarm, you did an eye poke, rather than a punch, I would tend to think that he's going to be thinking more about his eye than the gun.

Mike

 

[lonewolf12563]

Yes, but depending on the severity of the strike he will still be holding the gun and because he just got hit in the face, he will back up pull the gun and centering on you. Ed

 

[Cruentus]

Sorry to interject.

If you know how to "Follow," then strike him as hard as you want. I think that a strike is nessicary in most cases to disarm anyways. If the hand (weapon) attempts to move away from you after the strike, you follow, then it is no longer "away" from you. The arm may not be in the exact position for you to execute the disarm, in which case you abort what you are doing and go to something else (perhaps a different disarm). You shouldn't ever be fixated on one technique anyways, or your doomed from the start.

To prevent a pullback in the first place, "Push-pull." Your "push" is your hit in the face while you are simultaniously holding/pulling the wrist. The nervous system cannot react to too many things at once without extensive training, and most aren't trained to take a full strike to a vital while their arms are being tugged on. They're nervous system will be reacting to the strike and not what you are doing to the weapon hand. This is why striking is important in executing disarms. You take his focus away from the weapon hand so he won't resist you taking it away or locking him up.

My 2 cents. Milage will vary depending on skill level. Some may approach things differently then me, I am just explaining MY approach.

:asian:

 

[lonewolf12563]

Right! The strike to the face will cause the attacker to take a step back and to pull is arm back. Guess what the gun will center on you even if you drop him. Lets face it we are not Mike Tyson. Rarely are you going to drop someone with the strikes you discribe the very first time. Now if you hit him in the throat or the vegas nerve you may knock him out right away. But he will still step back. What to you do if he ducks your punch. He then may turn and punch you or grapple with you. Your hand grab technique leaves you in a bad position for recovery if you miss. Ed