Gun Disarm, Pistol Front

[lonewolf12563]

Hi, many of the techniques taught today invlove grabbing the gun hand, deflecting the gun and doing a wrist twist for the disarm. In my opinion this is a dangerous technique.
First the probability of you grabbing someones hand under high threat, real situation is very low. Second by grabbing the hand or attempting to, you are not effectively controling the field of fire nor the attackers body.
In the technique of the month on my web site I show a better method of controling the gun, field of fire and the attackers body. Check it out. Thanks Ed
www.lonewolfjujutsu.com

 

[Michael Billings]

When dealing with a gun, most Kenpo techniques involve redirecting the weapon, not the hand , as you get off line. If you deflect the wrist from the inside or outside, the wrist acts as a fulcrum and the weapon actually points toward the side where the wrist is struck. Try it.

Deflecting the weapon on the other hand, then seize (secure) the weapon, followed by controlling the wrist & weapon, prior to the disarm. Just a little different paradigm than hitting the wrist .. and a lot safer.

-Michael

 

[Gary Crawford]

I teach this a little different.Tell my your thoughts on this.I teach grab the gun at the top(to prevent the gun from fireing) at the same time as rotating torso out of line o fire,then stripping it away.I like the rest of your technique though.

 

[Cthulhu]

I teach this a little different.Tell my your thoughts on this.I teach grab the gun at the top(to prevent the gun from fireing) at the same time as rotating torso out of line o fire,then stripping it away.I like the rest of your technique though.

Can you clarify how grabbing the gun at the top would prevent the gun from firing?

Cthulhu

 

[Thesemindz]

Can you clarify how grabbing the gun at the top would prevent the gun from firing?

Cthulhu

I'm not positive, but I'm pretty sure he means grabbing the slide, on a semi-auto, to keep it from moving. I'm not sure this would keep it from firing, but it should keep it from firing twice. The slide will jam on the way back and fail to chamber a second round. The only way to return it to normal function then would be to manually eject the jammed cartridge and chamber another round. I think you'd probably get your hand chopped up doing this, but at least you'll only get shot once, not twice.


-Rob

 

[Mark L]

Don't grab the wrist or hand, grab the weapon. The primary technique we use is similar to what Gary wrote. Get skinny and grab the weapon, this controls field of fire and is, in my opinion, a superior first move. If I have my hand wrapped around the barrel of the gun I have the advantage over the attacker in that I have better leverage in determining where the gun is pointing. I can use my arm, shoulder, and torso muscles to redirect while the attacker is trying to maintain his aim with grip strength. Try it.

The web site photos, to me, expose the victim to the likelihood of having the attacker switch the weapon to the other hand. Photo 2 has the defender locking up the attack pretty well, but not controlling the weapon or the other hand. What's to prevent the BG from switching hands? We practice this stuff alot and if you don't grab the gun you have not established control of the situation, you'll end up wrestling an arm while there's a gun out there ...

 

[lonewolf12563]

Switching hand usually does not come it to play in real life or death situations. Ex-sample. Ever tried to take a pop from a kid...they counter by grabbing with both hands and the tug of war begins. Granted we are not kids but our brains work the same way under high stress.
Grabbing the gun from the top, which I have seen the Isrealis teach will not prevent the first round from going off. Every tried to grab a thin metal object by slapping and grabbing. 50% chance that it would fail. Porr odds. That is why I belive moving into the attacker is better. Control his body you control the gun. Ed

 

[Mark L]

Lonewolf,

Nope, never tried that. I'm refering to my experiences in the dojo, playing with folks that have a decided slant towards both strategic and tactical thinking. I recognize it is a sanitzed environment, but one where we are there to practice confrontation. I appreciate your point, I'll seek out opportunities to explore your ideas.

 

[Tgace]

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13118

The first post on this thread has some related firearms stuff that is relavent to this discussion.

 

[8253]

I believe all Kenpo gun techniques involve stepping out of the line of fire and as simultainiously as possible redirecting the firearm. By the way grabbing a gun on the top will not keep it from firing. If you grab a semi-auto or an automatic pistol and do not have a good grip on it if it fires the slide may come back and tear your hand up. I believe it is better to grab the wrist with which ever hand is on the outside step and then using the other to chop the barrel out to the other side. Then twist the wrist so that the barrel points up and pull it towards you. That should effectively break the wrist and make it easier for you to get the weapon away from the attacker. However it is always better to give them what they want in the first place. These are risky techniques and i would only try to use them if i believed i didnt have a choice otherwise.

 

[KenpoTex]

I'm not positive, but I'm pretty sure he means grabbing the slide, on a semi-auto, to keep it from moving. I'm not sure this would keep it from firing, but it should keep it from firing twice. The slide will jam on the way back and fail to chamber a second round.

As Tgace mentioned in the post he linked, this is correct. You can also prevent a semi-auto from firing by moving the slide slightly out of battery, in other words, pushing it back just slightly so that it's not locked-up. I remember reading somewhere that this is something the S.A.S. teaches their guys.
As far as disarming techniques, I think it would be most advatageous to control the gun in order to keep the muzzle pointed away from your body. Of course the other guy is going to be doing just the opposite. I just hope I never end up in this position in the first place

 

[MJS]

As Tgace mentioned in the post he linked, this is correct. You can also prevent a semi-auto from firing by moving the slide slightly out of battery, in other words, pushing it back just slightly so that it's not locked-up. I remember reading somewhere that this is something the S.A.S. teaches their guys.
As far as disarming techniques, I think it would be most advatageous to control the gun in order to keep the muzzle pointed away from your body. Of course the other guy is going to be doing just the opposite. I just hope I never end up in this position in the first place

This is the same idea that Krav Maga uses for their disarms.

Mike

 

[Disco]

I have noticed that with all the posts and even the pictures, that nobody has mentioned the use of stikes in conjunction with the disarm. Grab the wrist, grab the weapon, whatever your personal preference may be. A simultaneous strike, again whatever your preference may be, certainly makes the disarm a lot easier.

One thing I would suggest in your training is use a real weapon. Not one that is functioal but has been fixed for training. The slide works but you can't load any ammo. They even have training weapons (I think it was mentioned somewhere on MT), that actually fire very low blanks of somekind. They will not hurt you. See what happens when you use whatever your technique you use against the real thing. You just may be very surprised and keep a first aid kit handy.

 

[MJS]

I have noticed that with all the posts and even the pictures, that nobody has mentioned the use of stikes in conjunction with the disarm. Grab the wrist, grab the weapon, whatever your personal preference may be. A simultaneous strike, again whatever your preference may be, certainly makes the disarm a lot easier.

Again, the same principle as KM.

One thing I would suggest in your training is use a real weapon. Not one that is functioal but has been fixed for training. The slide works but you can't load any ammo. They even have training weapons (I think it was mentioned somewhere on MT), that actually fire very low blanks of somekind. They will not hurt you. See what happens when you use whatever your technique you use against the real thing. You just may be very surprised and keep a first aid kit handy.

Good point. Something that feels the same as a real weapon, as well as performing in a similar fashion is going to be a big plus. The same can be said for a knife. Applying something on the tip, sides of the kinife will leave a mark, thereby making your training that much more realistic!

Mike

 

[bluenosekenpo]

I have noticed that with all the posts and even the pictures, that nobody has mentioned the use of stikes in conjunction with the disarm. Grab the wrist, grab the weapon, whatever your personal preference may be. A simultaneous strike, again whatever your preference may be, certainly makes the disarm a lot easier.

One thing I would suggest in your training is use a real weapon. Not one that is functioal but has been fixed for training. The slide works but you can't load any ammo. They even have training weapons (I think it was mentioned somewhere on MT), that actually fire very low blanks of somekind. They will not hurt you. See what happens when you use whatever your technique you use against the real thing. You just may be very surprised and keep a first aid kit handy.

Exactly, why must everything end up on the ground? Doesn't he have friends? What if you don't have a clean lock on the weapon or arm, do you really want to roll around on the ground with a bad guy and a gun? In krav maga, you redirect the weapon, move your body out of the line of fire, and close the distance, punch or elbow, control and remove the gun. Then get out of range. Alot easier to do while standing!

Sounds like I'm opening the strike vs grapple can of worms, not my intention, i have a lot of respect for grappling arts, it's just a good grappler should know when not to take it to the ground, I'd suggest this might be one such time.

So,

Lefthand grabs gun, pushing it to your right, left foot steps to 11 o'clock as right hand comes up for punch to throat or eye strike, then right hand slides down to lever gun away from bad guy, get away. Elbows,knees and kicks can be used at any opportunity so long as weapon control is not relinquished. Just my opinion, but make it fast and brutal, then again I'm a newbie, so I could be full of it. Again no disrespect to the grapplers. :asian:

 

[psi_radar]

I'm not a strong believer in all the Kenpo weapons techniques, but I do like the one for this attack, Twisted Rod.

So first of all, if a perp is stupid enough to get within striking range with a pistol, it wouldn't be too hard to get off the line IF you're fast enough. I'm much less afraid of guns at this range than knives (1 pound of poop vs. 2) since really only the very tip of the thing is dangerous, and if you can keep the muzzle pointed away from you, you're actually in pretty good shape, except for your ears from the report.

The way I do Twisted Rod is (prefix--create a distraction, ex. say something confusing like "your sister does indeed like lima beans," to buy a quarter-second, then a) get off the line while closing the gap b) check the gun hand with your right hand c) throw the figure-4 lock on with the left and right, then shift hips to really engage the lock and unbalance the BG.

That's the first couple, most important moves, and with practice they can be launched faster than the perp can pull the trigger. The way the lock is applied results in the muzzle pointing at the BG's face, secured with your palm over the back of his hand.

Grabbing the barrel of a automatic first rather than the hand to keep it from discharging or hoping that it would stovepipe a round in the ejection port IMHO is probably not a good idea. First of all, most modern automatics don't have very long barrels. My 1911 does, but it's one of the few. So you run the risk of getting a digit shot off, and losing control of the weapon because it's slippery now. After you get control of the hand and muzzle direction, then you can slide your hand onto the barrel since he won't want the gun to go off when it's pointed at the center of his face.
Secondly, I really doubt that I could hang onto the barrel of a high-powered automatic when it was discharging. There's a strong recoil, plus I'd get burned, which typically makes me flinch away, and again I've lost control of the gun.

Lonewolf, I liked the last part of posted technique with the armbar, but as I think someone here mentioned, the first part of the technique still allows a fair amount of articulation with the wrist/gun.

 

[MJS]

Exactly, why must everything end up on the ground? Doesn't he have friends? What if you don't have a clean lock on the weapon or arm, do you really want to roll around on the ground with a bad guy and a gun? In krav maga, you redirect the weapon, move your body out of the line of fire, and close the distance, punch or elbow, control and remove the gun. Then get out of range. Alot easier to do while standing!

Who is talking about the ground here?? Did I miss something??? Are you referring to the tech. that was shown on the web site??

Sounds like I'm opening the strike vs grapple can of worms, not my intention, i have a lot of respect for grappling arts, it's just a good grappler should know when not to take it to the ground, I'd suggest this might be one such time.

I agree!! I dont think its wise to roll on the ground when dealing with a weapon.

So,

Lefthand grabs gun, pushing it to your right, left foot steps to 11 o'clock as right hand comes up for punch to throat or eye strike, then right hand slides down to lever gun away from bad guy, get away. Elbows,knees and kicks can be used at any opportunity so long as weapon control is not relinquished. Just my opinion, but make it fast and brutal, then again I'm a newbie, so I could be full of it. Again no disrespect to the grapplers. :asian:

Good point.

Mike

 

[psi_radar]

Mike, the last part of the technique as shown involved an armbar taken to the ground.

 

[MJS]

Mike, the last part of the technique as shown involved an armbar taken to the ground.

Yeah, I thought my post would make some confusion!! I got a little confused myself because I didnt see anything about the ground in Discos post. I figured that the armbar was what he was talking about there.

Mike

 

[MJS]

As for the tech. in question.....Personally, I'd rather do a counterstrike as you're doing the redirection. By not doing so, theres a good chance that the attacker is going to have time to react to what you're doing. Give him something else to think about while you're doing the disarm.

Mike