Ground Fighting Training and Law Enforcement - So you wanna be a cop?

[Buka]

Good article there.

Have to train/work with your duty clothes, be it uniform or plain clothes. Have to adjust how to do things, and don't worry, you'll find those things pretty quickly. In uniform, the bulkier it is, the more the problems. But they can be worked with if you don't mind getting dirty and smashed up. And trust me, you're going to wreck a uniform or three.

And, yes, shrimping sucks with a duty belt on. Big time.

Duty belt means a lot. I refused to wear any kind of spray on my belt, don't like it to begin with, and really don't want it anywhere near me when wrestling with some damn fool. The ground itself can make it leak or spray. (It was mandatory that we wore it in uniform, but I never did, not once, and nobody ever said anything) what kind of duty holster you wear means a great deal in these situations. You have to have at least a level three IMO. But even with the best holster, your weapon itself can be used as a "handle" while rolling around with a suspect. The way to deal with that is in training, not by surprise if it happens to you for the first time while on duty.

How well your vest fits is a very big factor as well. An off the rack vest, or one your buddy gave you, isn't the way to go. Nor is standard department issued. Has to be tailored for you (and if it ain't you'll probably stop wearing it anyway at some point - and that ain't good) You'll find in training that the vest itself can choke the crap out of you when it rides up in front (especially if it doesn't fit properly), or push your chin up when you don't want it to. It can also be used against you like a horse collar, so work that, too. Hot to train in, as well. Real hot. But hey, nobody said it was going to be easy.

In 1992, I had approached my bosses and told him we had to completely redesign the DT program, (I had written up a new proposal). I had designed the course six years before. The new proposal was met with polite chuckles and suggestions as to wear I could file it. (can't say I blamed them) I asked them to come to my dojo on Saturday night and that I'd buy dinner afterwards. Told them to bring workout clothes. They came.

This is a pic of me, my Section head and two of my other bosses after we did a class for officers in uniform and plain clothes with my teacher. At dinner afterwards my boss said, "Go, do whatever the hell you want and get everyone trained, I'll sign off on it. Just tell me how the hell he did all that stuff."

Good times. And I'll tell you what, Rickson knows almost as much about LEO training as he does about BJJ.

 

[Juany118]

Good article there.

Have to train/work with your duty clothes, be it uniform or plain clothes. Have to adjust how to do things, and don't worry, you'll find those things pretty quickly. In uniform, the bulkier it is, the more the problems. But they can be worked with if you don't mind getting dirty and smashed up. And trust me, you're going to wreck a uniform or three.

And, yes, shrimping sucks with a duty belt on. Big time.

Duty belt means a lot. I refused to wear any kind of spray on my belt, don't like it to begin with, and really don't want it anywhere near me when wrestling with some damn fool. The ground itself can make it leak or spray. (It was mandatory that we wore it in uniform, but I never did, not once, and nobody ever said anything) what kind of duty holster you wear means a great deal in these situations. You have to have at least a level three IMO. But even with the best holster, your weapon itself can be used as a "handle" while rolling around with a suspect. The way to deal with that is in training, not by surprise if it happens to you for the first time while on duty.

How well your vest fits is a very big factor as well. An off the rack vest, or one your buddy gave you, isn't the way to go. Nor is standard department issued. Has to be tailored for you (and if it ain't you'll probably stop wearing it anyway at some point - and that ain't good) You'll find in training that the vest itself can choke the crap out of you when it rides up in front (especially if it doesn't fit properly), or push your chin up when you don't want it to. It can also be used against you like a horse collar, so work that, too. Hot to train in, as well. Real hot. But hey, nobody said it was going to be easy.

In 1992, I had approached my bosses and told him we had to completely redesign the DT program, (I had written up a new proposal). I had designed the course six years before. The new proposal was met with polite chuckles and suggestions as to wear I could file it. (can't say I blamed them) I asked them to come to my dojo on Saturday night and that I'd buy dinner afterwards. Told them to bring workout clothes. They came.

This is a pic of me, my Section head and two of my other bosses after we did a class for officers in uniform and plain clothes with my teacher. At dinner afterwards my boss said, "Go, do whatever the hell you want and get everyone trained, I'll sign off on it. Just tell me how the hell he did all that stuff."

Good times. And I'll tell you what, Rickson knows almost as much about LEO training as he does about BJJ.

I think a lot of people don't understand how even a tailored vest can change how you move and, more importantly, that damn duty belt. Due to my slim waste I literally only have a gap in the small of my back. Starting from behind right hip and going clockwise...glove pouch, Streamlight stinger, radio, taser, mag pouch, spray (hate it but have to carry it), chain cuffs, firearm, baton, hinge cuffs. Also not all lvl 3 holsters are created equal. I remember the first one I had and it was the stupidest design I ever heard of. It had a thumb break and then you needed to cant the weapon forward to get around the internal safety feature. Well if the bad guy is in front of you they will naturally pull the weapon towards them... in the direction needed to defeat the safety feature. It was just silly.

 

[Buka]

I think a lot of people don't understand how even a tailored vest can change how you move and, more importantly, that damn duty belt. Due to my slim waste I literally only have a gap in the small of my back. Starting from behind right hip and going clockwise...glove pouch, Streamlight stinger, radio, taser, mag pouch, spray (hate it but have to carry it), chain cuffs, firearm, baton, hinge cuffs. Also not all lvl 3 holsters are created equal. I remember the first one I had and it was the stupidest design I ever heard of. It had a thumb break and then you needed to cant the weapon forward to get around the internal safety feature. Well if the bad guy is in front of you they will naturally pull the weapon towards them... in the direction needed to defeat the safety feature. It was just silly.

We used to take the old vests that were deemed no longer effective due to age and roll in them. But, yeah, they change everything.

Ain't it a pain being narrow waisted, brother. I'm a skinny bastard, too, but I'm lucky as dog right now. I keep gloves in a leg pants pocket. Going in the same clockwise direction from behind right hip- chain cuffs, two pouched mags, radio, firearm. That's it, that's the list. Keep flashlight in other side leg pocket. Notebook in another pocket (cookies in a another) (seriously)

How do you like the hinge cuffs?

 

[Juany118]

We used to take the old vests that were deemed no longer effective due to age and roll in them. But, yeah, they change everything.

Ain't it a pain being narrow waisted, brother. I'm a skinny bastard, too, but I'm lucky as dog right now. I keep gloves in a leg pants pocket. Going in the same clockwise direction from behind right hip- chain cuffs, two pouched mags, radio, firearm. That's it, that's the list. Keep flashlight in other side leg pocket. Notebook in another pocket (cookies in a another) (seriously)

How do you like the hinge cuffs?

I wish I could ditch stuff but about the only thing I could ditch per policy is the flashlight and I keep that there because I always forgot to snag the mag light from the car so that one is my fault. Gotta love Department policies, though I don't regret the baton. It can be a great equalizer if you are shy of justifying lethal force. If I could I would put the flashlight in the cargo pocket but we had to fight kick and scream to get Admin to let us have those pants... The deal was "must be closed at all times for a neat and tidy appearance" so it's not practical to put gear there that may need quick deployment.

As for the hinge cuffs good and bad.

The good: easier to apply (no twisting) and the same thing that makes them easy to apply also means it's harder for people to slip their hands in front of them and also less flexibility to try and get stuff out of their pants to ditch it etc.

The bad... The radius of each cuff is pretty big. When arrest really skinny people (typically females and juveniles) the hinge cuffs are simply to big. I used to carry two hinged and just use one cuff for both wrists on those occasions then one night I am dealing with a cracked out 20 something female and their wrists/hands were to big for that but to small to use both cuffs, so I swapped one out for chain.

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[drop bear]

Oh positional asphyxia is something else we also cover BUT that is seen (not saying right or wrong) as "stuff happens" if you are mid fight because the chance of death or serious bodily injury is, from a statistical point of view, far lower than head/neck control. Where you get jammed there is if you say hog tie a suspect and shove him in the back of a squad lying on their belly. That isn't in the heat of a fight so the "stuff happens" goes out the window.

That said the "LE standard" here (as opposed to formal private training) is to apply your weight in the area of the shoulder blades in terms of torso to minimize the dynamic.

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And you can get around it. There are figure 4 arm controls that peretty much tie up everything. The issue you have is they are technically almost go into the trick move style of submission wrestling. so you keep adding to the complexity of a move and keep lowering the chance it will actually work.

Those T bag style submissions.

That figure 4 is good kit though if you are actually fighting to get a guys hands behind his back.

 

[drop bear]

Do you think using the red zone as momentarily transition point a grey area as long as you are not finishing in it?
Civilian case, control of the head and neck is excellent way to off balance someone and control a person but I understand from an Leo perspective that it is a delicate area of control due to the higher risk of injury and lawsuits.

I did. Because my biggest issue was I would eat punches headbutts and elbows. Well before anyone had time to access a weapon. We also used to break dudes arms and legs trying to sweep them with armlocks.

But I also pretty much took people back before I took them to the ground. Which kind of becomes the best of both worlds.

It is that point that you start loosing control of the person that suddenly you have to escalate. So for a proffessional restraint. You really need to have that control from pretty much the moment you confront someone.

 

[Juany118]

And you can get around it. There are figure 4 arm controls that peretty much tie up everything. The issue you have is they are technically almost go into the trick move style of submission wrestling. so you keep adding to the complexity of a move and keep lowering the chance it will actually work.

Those T bag style submissions.

That figure 4 is good kit though if you are actually fighting to get a guys hands behind his back.

Yes you can get around it BUT I was simply referring specifically to the maneuvers you referenced previously. That said, again, the point of the article, from a LE perspective, is to learn ground fighting largely to avoid it but to also learn, if you have no choice, to use those techniques that allow you to do so while preserving weapon retention and the ability to disengage if the suspects friends show up.

I basically go into any encounter doing the following math in the event stuff goes sideways and it becomes a struggle.

1-Am I alone or do I have another officer(s) already with me + 2- environment + 3-are there other people around (or are there other rooms etc in the immediate area that may be concealing other people) + 4- always think weapon retention= the techniques I would prefer to use.

Note however I did say prefer...fights are dynamic and I may want to do A or B but the way things play out I am forced to do C, stuff happens, but I always try to have the foundation of a plan.


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[Juany118]

We used to take the old vests that were deemed no longer effective due to age and roll in them. But, yeah, they change everything.

Ain't it a pain being narrow waisted, brother. I'm a skinny bastard, too, but I'm lucky as dog right now. I keep gloves in a leg pants pocket. Going in the same clockwise direction from behind right hip- chain cuffs, two pouched mags, radio, firearm. That's it, that's the list. Keep flashlight in other side leg pocket. Notebook in another pocket (cookies in a another) (seriously)

How do you like the hinge cuffs?

@Buka I just reread this and have to ask... Cookies? What kind? I admit to always having a chocolate chip Clif bar in one side pocket, you never know when you will have not gotten a meal yet and then get stuck on a perimeter or going call to call. I am a little sensitive to blood sugar drops, not diabetic sensitive but enough to get very cranky.

 

[drop bear]

Yes you can get around it BUT I was simply referring specifically to the maneuvers you referenced previously. That said, again, the point of the article, from a LE perspective, is to learn ground fighting largely to avoid it but to also learn, if you have no choice, to use those techniques that allow you to do so while preserving weapon retention and the ability to disengage if the suspects friends show up.

Getting around issues like dumping your body weight or controlling the head mostly requires you to be a super slick wrestler. As this high up floating on top style wrestling. Which would be ideal for police work. Is also freaking hard. MMA use it a lot because it is also easier to hit people from that position.

But they are training every day at a top level. If you are going to look at this as a sometimes thing then you need to make some compromises.

I have fought guys in belt kit. If you control the grapple then you control their access to your gear. More than if you are not in control. Getting your stuff is easier if you are distracted by worrying about if you are going to win the fight.

Most physical arrests I have seen go to the deck. Because you can hold people down with your body and then free up your arms to do arrest things. like use handcuffs. I have done standing physical arrests. But they have generally been weak people.

Now otherwise I agree if you do go to the ground. Set yourself in a position that you can get back up even if it lets them back up.

 

[Buka]

I wish I could ditch stuff but about the only thing I could ditch per policy is the flashlight and I keep that there because I always forgot to snag the mag light from the car so that one is my fault. Gotta love Department policies, though I don't regret the baton. It can be a great equalizer if you are shy of justifying lethal force. If I could I would put the flashlight in the cargo pocket but we had to fight kick and scream to get Admin to let us have those pants... The deal was "must be closed at all times for a neat and tidy appearance" so it's not practical to put gear there that may need quick deployment.

As for the hinge cuffs good and bad.

The good: easier to apply (no twisting) and the same thing that makes them easy to apply also means it's harder for people to slip their hands in front of them and also less flexibility to try and get stuff out of their pants to ditch it etc.

The bad... The radius of each cuff is pretty big. When arrest really skinny people (typically females and juveniles) the hinge cuffs are simply to big. I used to carry two hinged and just use one cuff for both wrists on those occasions then one night I am dealing with a cracked out 20 something female and their wrists/hands were to big for that but to small to use both cuffs, so I swapped one out for chain.

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@Buka I just reread this and have to ask... Cookies? What kind? I admit to always having a chocolate chip Clif bar in one side pocket, you never know when you will have not gotten a meal yet and then get stuck on a perimeter or going call to call. I am a little sensitive to blood sugar drops, not diabetic sensitive but enough to get very cranky.

I try to stay politically correct and show no favoritism to any one group of cookies. I usually keep three in a ziplock. Tonight were two lovely honey, raisin oatmeals and a Macadamia nut/cocolateChip. Dunked the last one in a double shot of espresso - then pounded nine miles of a beat with a chip eating grin on my face. I so love this job.

Never used the hinge cuffs. Had a pair put on me, though, several times. Good cuffs. If you leave me unsupervised with chain cuffs on I'll get out of them in ninety seconds. Never could with the hinge cuffs.