Graureiher HEMA group at a Dog Brothers Gathering.

Discussion in 'Western Martial Arts - General' started by Tony Dismukes, Aug 19, 2015.

  1. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes Senior Master

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    Looks very cool, but not particularly safe.

    I can't find any info on the Graureiher group. Any of the HEMA folks here know anything about them?
     
  2. Flatfish

    Flatfish Black Belt

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    Gives new meaning to: " i'm gonna go medieval on your **** "
     
  3. Flatfish

    Flatfish Black Belt

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  4. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes Senior Master

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    If you have a chance, could you post a summary of whatever info they have on their site regarding their background and training methods?
     
  5. Flatfish

    Flatfish Black Belt

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    OK, this is about as much useful information as I could extract:


    Training:

    No sharpened edges, edges must be at least 1/8 inch wide.
    Points have to be protected with a ball or leather padding
    Safety gear needs to be at least a helmet, gloves and padded clothing. Other items are up to the individual.

    Weapons:
    They are using a variety of swords.
    Most commonly, a longsword “Spatha” with a 65-80 cm blade.
    Another one is the”Sax” I guess mostly known here as Seax. It’s a long knife with only one edge.
    Axes used include throwing axes “Franziska”, and one handed axes (although the video also showed a guy with a twohanded one IIRC)
    Spears and lances
    Shields: wood with the edge covered either with rawhide or iron, usually covered with either linen or rawhide. An iron bump sits in the middle.

    Armor:
    Padded clothing, chainmail and segmented iron armor, helmets of course.

    Background:
    They started out in 2007 focusing exclusively on medieval warfare but then got into reenactments and are now recognized as of 2013 as an organization to portray early medieval history setting up authentic camps, giving performances etc. They actually manufacture a lot of their equipment themselves and test it out during their camps. Looks like they are fairly small with only 10 members listed on their website.

    Their FB page has quite a few pics: https://www.facebook.com/GraureiherRotte/photos_albums
     
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  6. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Master Black Belt

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    I'd have a hard time calling this HEMA in the strict sense. There are no manuals detailing early medieval combat. The earliest is from 1300-ish for sword & buckler. Perhaps they are using late medieval manuals and adapting it to earlier weapons, hard to say. I'd doubt it. The spear on spear looked legit, but most of it seemed like straight-up reenactment. Reenactment =/= HEMA, anymore than WWE = jujutsu.

    It certainly ain't safe the way they're doing it. But no full-contact combat sport is particularly safe.
     
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  7. geezer

    geezer Grandmaster

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    Ahem! Or better put AHEMA! (Archaeolicical and Historical European Martial Arts)!!!

    Yes this did look like reenactment, so no comment there. But it is worth noting that a great deal more can be learned about ancient cultures than just by studying written documents. It's called archaeology (ta da!).

    Often good archaeological studies can reveal more about ancient lifeways than scarce historical documents alone, or in the case of "experimental archaeology", in the complete absence of historical records. I did a bit of that with flint knapping decades ago in school.

    Anyway, this seems to be what the best aficionados of early Western fighting methods are resorting to in order to recreate with a reasonable degree accuracy (or at least, plausibility) fighting systems from the Early Middle Ages and before. Hence the term "AHEMA" (I don't know if such a term actually exists but it should!).

    Here's an example I found on Youtube:





     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2015
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  8. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    If you want academic studies try the Royal Armouries, they have extremely well qualified researchers, curators and experts. They will answers questions from the public as well. What we do | Royal Armouries
     
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  9. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    You mean these guys?
    Historical Martial Arts | Royal Armouries

    You know that they're part of the "mainstream" HEMA movement and are plugged in with pretty much every one else, right? For the most part they teach the same things in similar ways with similar movements and interpretations. Of course, there are always going to be differences in certain interpretations or other differences which those looking in from the outside would consider more-or-less "trivial." Sort of like "trivial" differences between one branch of Kenjutsu and another. It may not be "trivial" to them, but to the rest of us, who cares if you clinch your pinky finger or leave it hanging loose?

    As far as most of the HEMA world is concerned, "they is us."

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
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  10. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    Oh, and, for what it's worth, I have a mutual acquaintance with John Waller in the personage of Brad Waller (I don't think they're related). I've trained in a few of Brad's classes at the former ISMAC seminars. I particularly enjoyed his Marozzo Pressas class where I was just planning on sitting at the edge of the room and taking notes (because I was wiped out by that time) yet he coaxed me into participating anyhow by shear niceness. Brad is a skilled instructor and you would never hope to meet a nicer person.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  11. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    No I don't mean them at all, they are just a group who train on the premises, I mean the actual curators and researchers employed by the Royal Armouries. these people Research Staff | Royal Armouries and these Curators Emeritus | Royal Armouries
     
  12. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    I very carefully read the Biography of Mr. Lankester. I see absolutely nothing listed in his training or experience which would give him any particular insight or knowledge on how to actually apply those edged weapons in a fight.

    I'd feel comfortable asking him questions about when a given pattern sword first appeared and who the important historic figures were who used examples thereof, but unless there's something missing from his bio, if I wanted training on how to actually use a weapon in a fight, I'd go to a SCA training session before I went to him.

    Knowing the history of a lot of weapons doesn't mean you know how to use them (never mind teach 'em) and being really smart doesn't mean you know how to fight.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
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  13. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    I'm not sure why you would pick out one member of staff, he's head of department not the department and only at Leeds, there's also London. If you have an enquiry it goes to the appropriate person not necessarily to the head of department.
     
  14. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    What is the injury level like?
     
  15. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    So is there a member of staff there who will put on the armour and bang?
     
  16. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    Absolutely. That's one of the best bits about going, you don't just get to listen to the lecture there are demos, fights and more. A lot of the stuff you don't just get to touch you get to play with lol. The Royal Armouries is ancient and was what it says it was, the place where armour and weapons were made and stored, there are still workshops where craftsmen make weapons. It dates from the 15th century and part was already being used as a museum from the 16th century. The original Royal Armouries are still in the Tower of London, Leeds and Portsmouth ( where the artillery is) are more modern additions. It is publically owned, a national treasure in fact.
     
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  17. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    Well, because he's on the link you posted and, of those four, he's the only one with anything even related to medieval fighting skills interest in that he's curating medieval weapons and armour. And it doesn't look like he knows jack about fighting, never mind how medieval fighting actually worked at the nuts-n-bolts level.

    And I promise you that if the question was about actual fighting skills and it ended up with someone who actually had any fighting skills associated with medieval weapons or techniques, then that person would be "plugged into" the general HEMA community.

    Where do you think this stuff comes from? Heck, most of the historic manuscripts were only available to University staff and Researchers for ages. You don't just open the Pisani-Dossi to some larper. 600 year old one-of-a-kind documents are in the hands of museums and private collections.

    This research STARTED in Universities and spread from there. In a very real way, nearly every HEMA organization can trace its roots back to a Professor or Researcher who started questioning assumptions about what Medieval fighting actually was and then dug out the manuscripts. You've written a couple of times now that, "I go down to the Royal Armouries, real experts when I want to know anything about European fighting systems." I've tried to point out to you that, for the most part, the HEMA world is very interconnected when it comes to research and interpretations of actual fighting technique. For the most part, you don't have to "go down to the Royal Armouries" because they're not the only "real experts" as you've implied. In fact, it appears that the Royal Armouries has lots and lots of Curators who aren't "real experts" on fighting.

    Bob Charron, one of the leading researchers in Fiore style medieval Longsword in the HEMA community, has presented something like three Papers here: International Congress on Medieval Studies | Western Michigan University

    To be more blunt than I'd really like (because I like you), you seem to have some misconceptions and prejudices concerning the entire HEMA movement.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2015
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  18. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    Well, yes you were rude and I think you have mistaken what I have said, blown it up and made a mountain out of a molehill. All I said was IF I were interested I'd pop along to Leeds ..... because it's just down the road and as I go there anyway it would be no trouble to ask (is that plain enough for you), and I added that I'm not particularly interested so I don't have any preconceptions about HEMA, I have no ideas about them whatsoever, I don't have any prejudices either, how could I when I'm not particularly interested. I made a comment you don't like it fine, you can disagree, ignore or just scroll past. You decided I meant 'real experts' not me, hence your taking offence, you said I implied it, I never, as you should know, imply anything ( as many have complained before, I speak plainly), I say it or I don't so please don't put words in my mouth.
     
  19. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    Sorry. Not trying to be. Sometimes to be clear and sidestep misunderstandings in written conversation, blunt writing is necessary. However, it's, well, blunt. :(

    Good. That'd be nice. Unusual in this day and age, but nice anyway.

    Are you sure about that? Perhaps you should re-read your posts on the subject. Several of your statements on the subject come across as dismissive of any expertise on Medieval fighting methods which aren't Royal Armouries, even specifically dismissing a group which teaches there saying, "they are just a group who train on the premises, I mean the actual curators and researchers employed by the Royal Armouries" and "I go down to the Royal Armouries, real experts when I want to know anything about European fighting systems." Well, "actual curators," which I read the bios for, don't apparently actually know how to fight, never mind fighting as it was done with Medieval weapons.

    I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm quoting the words that came out of it. If you mean something else, then perhaps you should have said something else. It's not that I decided you mean "real experts" (as you write, above), it's that you specifically wrote "real experts." I didn't "decide" anything, I'm just going by what you wrote.

    Again, you've made several statements now rejecting the subject matter expertise of any except Royal Armouries personnel, and it sure looks like you're attempting to hedge your bets now by claiming, "well, I really don't care anyway," and "hey, I'm just speaking plainly."

    I'm sorry that you're offended by my "rudeness" of being blunt now, but, honestly, I don't have much else left. I tried being gentle and circumspect but that didn't get anywhere. So "blunt" it is. :(
     
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  20. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    For goodness sake, why are you so touchy? If I said real experts it was stop people like you saying they weren't.
    I haven't 'started saying I'm not that interested' I said it at the start.
    You are reading into my words things that aren't there. You see it as dismissive, you see what I said as dismissive, it's how you read things. yes. do we really want a discussion on what the 'just' means because you are reading a lot into it that I didn't put there. I take Brownies and we meet in a church hall but we are just a group which meets there we aren't part of the church, there does that satisfy you? why read into it more than it means, they are just a group who meets at the Armouries not part of it. if you think that is a put down then I'm sorry but it is what it is.
    I don't know why you think I'm saying only the personnel at the Armouries are the only ones who have knowledge, again this is what you are reading into it. I was asked a question about whether they did 'demos' ie staff bashing each other, I said yes and expanded on it, excuse me if you think I have trodden on your toes. I have been very careful not to say anything about HEMA if you notice and to only mention something I knew something about ie Royal Armouries, if you have taken this the wrong way then again I'm sorry, I'm guilty on passing on too much information about one place because I thought it was interesting wheras it was obviously offensive, full of contempt and generally nasty.

    Oh and I'm not offended by your posts, disappointed I think is the word I'd use. You seem to keep reading so much more into a few words that I could possible have meant.
     
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