Grabbing The Handgun During a Violent Encounter

Discussion in 'General Self Defense' started by Brian R. VanCise, Nov 19, 2017.

  1. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

    • Advisor
    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2005
    Messages:
    3,597
    Likes Received:
    807
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Huber Heights, OH
    I know that moving directly away to "increase distance" is popular and "zigzagging" seems to still (for some unknown reason) get some love, but I don't really recommend it.

    Ask any shotgunner, for instance, hitting targets moving more-or-less directly away is easy. Hitting targets that are moving laterally is harder. You have to lead and know your lead (which may be next to nothing at effective pistol distances). Further, my experience is that inexperienced shooters don't maintain their movement when they press the trigger. IOW, they halt the movement of the gun when the press the trigger. If the target is moving more-or-less directly away (even if "zigzagging"), then the chances of hitting are still pretty good. When moving laterally, the shooter has to keep moving with the moving target to hit.

    Is this a "get out of jail free card?" Not even close. You're just trying to make it a bit harder.

    Again, to reiterate, as much as possible that lateral movement should be toward cover, or concealment if cover is unavailable.

    Thanks for sharing your experiment. It reinforces my observations about moving directly away or "zigzagging."

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  2. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

    • Advisor
    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2005
    Messages:
    3,597
    Likes Received:
    807
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Huber Heights, OH
    Depends on the distance and the quality of the airsoft. A decent quality airsoft at 30 or 40 feet it's not going to be significantly inaccurate enough to make a training difference in most cases.

    And they sting too. If you really want motivation while doing airsoft "live" or "force on force" <cough> training, wear a T-Shirt (and goggles/safety-glasses of course). Those rascals can draw blood and will almost always welt you. The pain is a motivation to move.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  3. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

    • Advisor
    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2005
    Messages:
    3,597
    Likes Received:
    807
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Huber Heights, OH
    Distance. If you are withing one step, roughly, and gain gain the initiative, you've got a chance. Human reaction time is such that most people can pass the point before the swordsman can react. If you are within arms reach, then you have a much better chance. It is nearly impossible for human reaction to occur.

    This is the essence of Silver's "True Times," particularly the last one I mentioned which would be his "Time of the Hand."

    This also has applications to the OODA Loop.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  4. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

    Top Poster Of Month

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    16,444
    Likes Received:
    4,683
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    Airsoft don’t have the same recoil, which should make for improved aim on follow-up shots. I suspect their accuracy is much lower, but probably not a huge difference at the distances in question.
     
  5. geezer

    geezer Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2007
    Messages:
    5,800
    Likes Received:
    2,012
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    Our group in Texas has also experimented with this and came up with the same results. Some of us were a bit surprised that you could stop the slide from cycling with your bare hand and not suffer injury. But repeated attempts confirmed your conclusions.

    Secondly, regarding whether or not grabbing the gun and attempting a disarm is wise, I think we all agree that normally grappling with an armed attacker is strictly a last resort. so I'm not sure where all the blowback was coming from.

    Regarding Kirk's comments on weapons grappling being "just grappling" ....well yes and no. Grappling to gain control of a weapon, using any and all means possible, is different than grappling "mano a mano" to submit or defeat an opponent. For one thing, a lot of striking will be involved. And as Bruce Lee famously said about punching.... :p :D
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. pgsmith

    pgsmith Master of Arts

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2005
    Messages:
    1,535
    Likes Received:
    436
    Trophy Points:
    123
    Location:
    Texas
    That's very true. However, if you are unarmed and within one step of a decent swordsman, he'd have already cut you. :)
    Of course, someone that is pointing a pistol at you that you might be forced to take away from them, are not likely to be the most experienced at actually using a firearm. Those living the thug life aren't given much to practicing, they tend to rely more on intimidation. :)
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  7. geezer

    geezer Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2007
    Messages:
    5,800
    Likes Received:
    2,012
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    Right, and if a guy is right in front of you with a pistol, maybe even pressing it to your head or up under your chin, he's using intimidation. Clearly, he's not going to shoot you ....at least till he gets what he wants, or you'd already be dead.

    So you have to weigh your options. Which will give you the best chance of survival ...giving him what he wants, trying to run away, or going for the disarm? Depending on the circumstances, any one or the above might be the safest choice.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  8. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

    • Advisor
    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2005
    Messages:
    3,597
    Likes Received:
    807
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Huber Heights, OH
    More than you might think.

    Criminal Firearm Training | Second Call Defense

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  9. hoshin1600

    hoshin1600 Senior Master

    Joined:
    May 16, 2014
    Messages:
    2,646
    Likes Received:
    1,192
    Trophy Points:
    253
    i think this "statistic" is an urban legend. if by chance it was correct i would want to know if the percentage was due to the fact that
    (A) most criminals are not out to kill you but have other motives and do not fire due this fact.
    (B) your test gives me the impression that it was done in an open environment, most shooting happen in a closed environment where concealment and cover are more available. more obstacles for the shooter to get past for a clean sight.
     
  10. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
    5,001
    Likes Received:
    3,572
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Lexington, KY
    A third possibility - in cases where a real firearm is in play, the adrenaline levels are likely much higher than in a training environment. That adrenaline could make a major difference in accuracy - especially for a shooter without professional experience.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

    Top Poster Of Month

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    16,444
    Likes Received:
    4,683
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    I think the biggest problem with that stat (if it is even a statistic) is that we don't have the comparable statistic for not running, nor for struggling. If those are 95% and 92% (making them up), then the 90% for running is somewhat worse than the alternatives. If they are 75% and 50%, then the 90% is a much better option. That all, of course, assumes the 90% is valid.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

    • Advisor
    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2005
    Messages:
    3,597
    Likes Received:
    807
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Huber Heights, OH
    Article and advice from Sergeant Jim Wagner.

    Black Belt

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  13. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

    Top Poster Of Month

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    16,444
    Likes Received:
    4,683
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    According to that article, the 90% is the chance of surviving being shot. Some good discussion in there of some of the problems - both physical and psychological. I can feel some training coming on.
     
  14. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

    • Advisor
    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2005
    Messages:
    3,597
    Likes Received:
    807
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Huber Heights, OH
    Medical technology being available, of course...

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  15. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2011
    Messages:
    8,042
    Likes Received:
    4,790
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Maui
    Great post. Sounds like a great place to train, too.
     
  16. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

    Top Poster Of Month

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    16,444
    Likes Received:
    4,683
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    Yeah, I assume that's the condition.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    15,712
    Likes Received:
    3,538
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Get the shooter to do a 100m sprint. Then re do the drill.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  18. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

    Top Poster Of Month

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    16,444
    Likes Received:
    4,683
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    Or set off the fire alarm. It's amazing what those things do to my nerves when they go off.
     
    • Like Like x 1

Share This Page