Good arts for getting to your gun

[Gerry Seymour]

Training that people attend because they have to tends to be different to training people do because they actually want to aquire a skill.

And yes industry training could be good. It just generally isn't. Became it doesn't have to be.

Tends to (as you've said here) is probably a better way to state it.

 

[lklawson]

How does that change the mechanics?

Because this:
Why Military and Law Enforcement firearms force training may not be optimal...

 

[lklawson]

Training that people attend because they have to tends to be different to training people do because they actually want to aquire a skill.

Not in the firearms world it isn't. The difference is usually how interested and attentive the participants are. Those people who are being sent to it and are required to go usually are less attentive and often don't want to be there at all. Those people who pay out of their own pocket for it are usually very motivated. Firearms training is very expensive and when you're paying for it yourself you want to get your dollars worth.

 

[lklawson]

There are going to be positions where it is safe to draw and positions where it is unsafe. And they would be pretty easily worked out and broken down.

Of course nobody has really bothered to work that out which is why we have the systems we have. Stand up get clear and then think about the gun you had on you the whole time.

Grappling is inherently about creating and denying access.

Can you clarify? What exactly is your experience and training with firearms and firearms draw mechanics, and firearms retention? I want to know if you are coming at this from any sort of training or practical or if this is 100% speculation on your part.

 

[CB Jones]

Training that people attend because they have to tends to be different to training people do because they actually want to aquire a skill.

And yes industry training could be good. It just generally isn't. Became it doesn't have to be.

Disagree. The training has to be good. Lives are on the line. You just can’t throw together half *** tactics when it comes to having to use lethal force.

Our instructors take it very seriously and continuously are analyzing our tactics and looking to improve on them.

And most LEO take their firearms, and officer survival training pretty serious since we tend to want to get to go home at the end of shift.

 

[drop bear]

Because this:
Why Military and Law Enforcement firearms force training may not be optimal...

Yeah it is a really limiting way to aproach the situation. And not one I would really subscribe to. But is really common.

In a fight you have a goal. and that goal can change from situation to situation. But within that fight there are lots of little goals that quite often will match up.

I have mentioned this idea when the conversation of cross training comes up. In that if you only have one system you can quite easily gloss over parts of that system.

When you change the goal you force yourself to focus on aspects that you may have been avoiding.

Wrestling has a goal. MMA has a different goal. But good wrestling means good MMA.

 

[drop bear]

Disagree. The training has to be good. Lives are on the line. You just can’t throw together half *** tactics when it comes to having to use lethal force.

Our instructors take it very seriously and continuously are analyzing our tactics and looking to improve on them.

And most LEO take their firearms, and officer survival training pretty serious since we tend to want to get to go home at the end of shift.

Sorry why can't you throw half *** tactics when it comes to lethal force?

How long is a CCW course out of intrests sake?

 

[drop bear]

Can you clarify? What exactly is your experience and training with firearms and firearms draw mechanics, and firearms retention? I want to know if you are coming at this from any sort of training or practical or if this is 100% speculation on your part.

Not much. I carried a gun as a security giuard. And fought guys with bats and handcuffs.

But I never shot anybody from a wrestle.

Is it more complicated than using a mobile phone from a wrestle?


Are you suggesting the better wrester wouldn't win here?

 

[drop bear]

Not in the firearms world it isn't. The difference is usually how interested and attentive the participants are. Those people who are being sent to it and are required to go usually are less attentive and often don't want to be there at all. Those people who pay out of their own pocket for it are usually very motivated. Firearms training is very expensive and when you're paying for it yourself you want to get your dollars worth.

When you are choosing to undergo the training you will also hopefully seek out good training.

 

[drop bear]

Tends to (as you've said here) is probably a better way to state it.

Yeah. Tends is better. I did a first aid course a while back. Every single person there was doing the course because they had to for work. You are there to get the certificate. If the instructor says something dumb. Who cares? It is not about imparting any sort of real skill.

My point here is industry training is not by its own existence any good. The training needs to stand on its own merits. Which to me seem pretty simple.

Can you get up from under a guy draw a gun and shoot them with it? And lets see that done consistently.

There are two different arguments at play.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Sorry why can't you throw half *** tactics when it comes to lethal force?

How long is a CCW course out of intrests sake?

CCW courses don't actually teach gun use. They teach the legalities of carrying.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah. Tends is better. I did a first aid course a while back. Every single person there was doing the course because they had to for work. You are there to get the certificate. If the instructor says something dumb. Who cares? It is not about imparting any sort of real skill.

My point here is industry training is not by its own existence any good. The training needs to stand on its own merits. Which to me seem pretty simple.

Can you get up from under a guy draw a gun and shoot them with it? And lets see that done consistently.

There are two different arguments at play.

I have seen bad first aid training (and almost any other kind of training) at open courses (where the attendees chose to attend), as well. I've often seen someone teaching who just knows what's in the book (they were taught to teach a course). Whether it's mandatory or not doesn't seem to much change the nature of the instructor, but the nature of the attendees...and that latter, not so much, either. I get people attending public seminars on business topics who clearly decided before they walked in that this was just a chance to get out of work...and they paid (or talked someone else in to paying) $200 for that.

 

[drop bear]

CCW courses don't actually teach gun use. They teach the legalities of carrying.

So would that be described as half *** tactics when it comes to lethal force?

 

[drop bear]

I have seen bad first aid training (and almost any other kind of training) at open courses (where the attendees chose to attend), as well. I've often seen someone teaching who just knows what's in the book (they were taught to teach a course). Whether it's mandatory or not doesn't seem to much change the nature of the instructor, but the nature of the attendees...and that latter, not so much, either. I get people attending public seminars on business topics who clearly decided before they walked in that this was just a chance to get out of work...and they paid (or talked someone else in to paying) $200 for that.

Yeah. But if you are about to jump in to a fight people tend to take their training a bit seriously.

 

[CB Jones]

How long is a CCW course out of intrests sake?

For a permit?

How would I know?

We don’t teach private citizens.

I work for a large law enforcement agency that operates a large training facility that also trains law enforcement officers from around the U.S. I’m an adjunct instructor there and at a large regional academy but is for LEO only as well.

 

[drop bear]

For a permit?

How would I know?

We don’t teach private citizens.

I work for a large law enforcement agency that operates a large training facility that also trains law enforcement officers from around the U.S. I’m an adjunct instructor there and at a large regional academy but is for LEO only as well.

Can we see what that training looks like?

 

[CB Jones]

Can we see what that training looks like?

Only by getting hired by our agency or having your agency send you to our training facility. Lol.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So would that be described as half *** tactics when it comes to lethal force?

It doesn't teach tactics. That's not the purpose of the standard CCW course. That's like complaining that a First Aid course doesn't teach how to block a punch.

I'm not saying they shouldn't teach that (I actually think they should), but that's not what they aim to teach, so it's not half *** tactics - it's not tactics, at all.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah. But if you are about to jump in to a fight people tend to take their training a bit seriously.

I would hope so. Though I've seen some folks come into MA training who weren't all that serious about it.

 

[drop bear]

It doesn't teach tactics. That's not the purpose of the standard CCW course. That's like complaining that a First Aid course doesn't teach how to block a punch.

I'm not saying they shouldn't teach that (I actually think they should), but that's not what they aim to teach, so it's not half *** tactics - it's not tactics, at all.

So not even half *** tactics to use lethal force.

I mean can we suggest that just because we are preparing someone for lethal force does not guarantee we are doing a good job.

Our police by the way fire 30 rounds a year. to prepare them for lethal force.

Oh. and it is like saying a first aid course doesn't teach you first aid. Just the legalities of first aid. Which would be silly.