Getting the Angle

[LFJ]

And that is why people that have actually learned what was is being shown should be listened to and given a little credence when they explain what the person in the video was likely trying to demonstrate. Rather than being told "No, you are wrong, just look at this slo mo video as I proceed to nick-pick every little detail!"

I didn't say your method is wrong. But, you are demonstrably wrong when you say they're doing things that they clearly are not.

Mazza is "getting the angle" just like we've been talking about on this thread...
...That doesn't give the opponent space to recover because he is off-balancing the opponent or "breaking his base" at the same time.

The opponent in the gif is not off-balanced or anything, he's just not responding.

His lead leg is being pulled back to reface Mazza.
If he went with the step to reface and fire from the other hand it would likely be a knockout at the same time Mazza is hitting low.

The guy's right foot is forward. He is twisted and off-balance. There would be no power in any counter-punch from that other arm.

Not twisted at all. He's being opened up and turned toward Mazza, but he is just not going with it for sake of the demo.

The only thing stopping him from going with the force of Mazza's gaang-sau and knocking him out is his unresponsiveness for sake of the demo.

And the angle and distance Mazza has created puts him in a place where he could deal easily with a punch from that arm if it did come.

The punch would come around fast with added momentum from Mazza pulling him around at the same time Mazza is punching to the abdomen.

Most likely result is knockout, even if he lands a simultaneous body shot.

---Again, realize this is a demo, Mazza is going relatively slow. Slow enough that his partner has a chance to take a little step back to recover his balance. At speed that wouldn't happen.

At speed, he could go with the force and a throw a powerful strike from the other hand. You must be able to see this.

---No. This is the worst case of nit-picking and being critical just because something doesn't match what you would do.

I don't have a problem with other MAs I don't train not doing what I do. I don't expect them to.

I'm just pointing out that, 1. he's not doing what you say he's doing, and 2. I don't think it's very practical.

You can believe whatever you want.

You too, apparently, if you can even defend that gif as "smothering" and not clearly stepping backward, away from the guy.

 

[Juany118]

We see how Mazza's feet are moving backward, away from the opponent, actually affording the opponent space to recover.

---Man, you never stop! Just one response to this because I'm not letting you draw me into another of your long and pointless arguments. Mazza is "getting the angle" just like we've been talking about on this thread. Different approach than charging into the opponent as you would probably do. That doesn't give the opponent space to recover because he is off-balancing the opponent or "breaking his base" at the same time.


His follow up gaang-sau only helps the guy reface him and adds momentum to the other arm to counterpunch with.

---No it doesn't. The guy's right foot is forward. He is twisted and off-balance. There would be no power in any counter-punch from that other arm. And the angle and distance Mazza has created puts him in a place where he could deal easily with a punch from that arm if it did come.



So, maybe his initial cheun-sau pushes into the guy. But he is not at all smothering his opponent or taking his balance with the follow up.

---Again, realize this is a demo, Mazza is going relatively slow. Slow enough that his partner has a chance to take a little step back to recover his balance. At speed that wouldn't happen.



This is a worse case of disconnect between say and do than anything I've seen from Phil, because he's doing the exact opposite of what you say!

---No. This is the worst case of nit-picking and being critical just because something doesn't match what you would do.

---Again, I'm not going to argue with you because it will do no good. You can believe whatever you want.

You pretty much covered everything I would have to regarding Sifu Keith's vid. The only way for those two things to be corrected would be for Sifu Keith to be A. actually fighting and B. risking legit injury to his opponent. I also found it interesting how the body mechanics if the student we're ignored when it came to the gaan. Off balance, feet facing a different direction... As a matter of fact a number of grappling arts would use a technique the movement of which is similar to a gaan to actually flow into an armbar takedown right there because the opponent is so disadvantaged.

 

[LFJ]

I also found it interesting how the body mechanics if the student we're ignored when it came to the gaan. Off balance, feet facing a different direction... As a matter of fact a number of grappling arts would use a technique the movement of which is similar to a gaan to actually flow into an armbar takedown right there because the opponent is so disadvantaged.

Not ignored. It's because he's not responding.

Nothing here would be stopping him from going with the force that's pulling him to reface and counterpunch as Mazza is performing the gaang-sau. Mazza would be pulling a punch right into his face.

To do an armbar takedown, you'd want to move in tight, not step away and open up space to power striking range for the opponent.

 

[wckf92]

I would suggest, after his initial cheun-sau to jat-da, since he's already achieved flank, he should continue to pressure directly inward through the guy's core and not allow him to easily recover.

Agreed!

 

[geezer]

Agreed!

^^^ That would also be my preferred follow-up.

On the other hand some fighters work better with a little more space. What KPM said about the guy in the GIF above being twisted and off-balanced by Mazza's gaun-sau rings true. My DTE coach does stuff like that to me. It might look like you could use the energy received to turn and punch in response, but the way my DTE coach does it, you are totally jacked up and such an instantaneous recovery simply isn't a possibility.

 

[KPM]

On the other hand some fighters work better with a little more space. What KPM said about the guy in the GIF above being twisted and off-balanced by Mazza's gaun-sau rings true. My DTE coach does stuff like that to me. It might look like you could use the energy received to turn and punch in response, but the way my DTE coach does it, you are totally jacked up and such an instantaneous recovery simply isn't a possibility.

That's it exactly! But LFJ hasn't trained this way or had it done to him, so he just refuses to see it.

 

[geezer]

That's it exactly! But LFJ hasn't trained this way or had it done to him, so he just refuses to see it.

Ironic. He has acute vision, but such a narrow focus . It's like he views everything with VT blinders? Anyway, it seems that way to me.

 

[LFJ]

That's it exactly! But LFJ hasn't trained this way or had it done to him, so he just refuses to see it.

It's simply that he's not twisted or off-balanced. He's purposefully unresponsive.

Geezer's DTE teacher probably does stuff that actually does that to you, but at this point he's just trying to save you some face.

 

[Juany118]

Ironic. He has acute vision, but such a narrow focus . It's like he views everything with VT blinders? Anyway, it seems that way to me.

Perhaps part of the issue is the lack of grappling that WSLVT/PB has? Now I will admit that TWC grappling is basically basic to intermediate level when I look at my Judo and Aikido training, BUT the idea of using movements like a gaun-sau to unbalance an opponent is, in my experience, definitely part of grappling/mixed arts but alien to a "pure" striking art. There the imbalance comes from strikes and counter strikes, not a "soft" movement like a gaun. Ultimately that is what makes the gaun work after all. It's not forward intent like a pak/tan/bong etc. it is rather a circular (soft) intent. In a "pure" striking context that is often seen as something used to simply remove a barrier, if you do it and it hurts even better, but the idea of continuing to unbalance your opponent with the motion vs simply remove/hurt, is sometimes missing.

 

[Juany118]

It's simply that he's not twisted or off-balanced. He's purposefully unresponsive.

Geezer's DTE teacher probably does stuff that actually does that to you, but at this point he's just trying to save you some face.

I tried to avoid this but here we go... again, that this is NOT a dynamic expression but a simulation for a seminar. As I said earlier to do what would really happen would be on mats and not have as much "play by play". The fact you acknowledge that @geezer 's DTE teacher can do that stuff says that you acknowledge it can be done. As such I think, as others have said previously, you are basically engaging in a lineage attack, as passive aggressive as it may be.

If you want to talk about the principles described cool. You want to debate the benefits of "up the middle" vs flanking/blind side also cool. But this clear nit picking over what are the natural by products of a step by step demonstration is simply counter productive to anything resembling a reasonable dialogue.

 

[Lobo66]

I don't know, guys. I agree with LFJ's analysis of the video and I think he's tried to remain neutral and technical. Maybe I've missed something but I don't see any "lineage bashing." My only experience with TWC (and I realize that one experience isn't statistically significant) jives with what LFJ has said, but that doesn't mean that I think TWC is worthless or bad as a style of WC.

Flanking and creating angles of attack is, of course, incredibly important in fighting and technical, detailed discussions on the subject are worth our while.

 

[LFJ]

Perhaps part of the issue is the lack of grappling that WSLVT/PB has?

What does PB have to do with anything here?

WSLVT isn't a grappling art, but that doesn't mean anyone who trains it can't/doesn't also train legit grappling styles.

As I said earlier to do what would really happen would be on mats and not have as much "play by play".

And the opponent would also be able to respond.

The fact you acknowledge that @geezer 's DTE teacher can do that stuff says that you acknowledge it can be done.

"That stuff" being things that twist and unbalance someone in general.

That is not an acknowledgment that what Mazza shows can be done without getting knocked out!

I think, as others have said previously, you are basically engaging in a lineage attack,

Well, you're wrong.

If you post a video of someone doing the exact opposite of what you say, pointing that out is not a lineage attack.

If I think something is impractical and tell you exactly why and what I'd do differently, that is also not a lineage attack. It's constructive criticism.

If you want to talk about the principles described cool. You want to debate the benefits of "up the middle" vs flanking/blind side also cool. But this clear nit picking over what are the natural by products of a step by step demonstration is simply counter productive to anything resembling a reasonable dialogue.

I don't expect much to get through to you yet, since you previously argued that he was stepping into the opponent, and would not acknowledge that his feet are actually stepping backward, taking him away from the opponent.

Just look at his dang feet. He's backing up toward the camera.

If you can't even see this much, of course you think the rest is nitpicking...

...of course you can't see the opponent's stance being pulled to open up and reface, and what would happen if he went with the force and rotated with a punch from his left hand. That guy is a boxer after all, I'm sure he knows how to throw rotational punches quite well, and that would be his natural response.

 

[KPM]

I don't know, guys. I agree with LFJ's analysis of the video and I think he's tried to remain neutral and technical. Maybe I've missed something but I don't see any "lineage bashing." My only experience with TWC (and I realize that one experience isn't statistically significant) jives with what LFJ has said, but that doesn't mean that I think TWC is worthless or bad as a style of WC.
.

Generalizing negative comments to EVERYONE within a particular lineage, is "lineage bashing"! As when LFJ said this:

I just find this is a common problem coming from TWC guys. There is always a disconnect between what they say and what their videos actually show them doing. Almost every time, in fact.

It's quite bizarre. I'm not sure if they're unable to execute their tactics as they explain them, or if they're unable to explain their tactics as they execute them. But in any case, they just don't match up.



That would be the same thing as me saying:

"I just find this is a common problem coming from WSLVT guys. They always take a negative view of anything that differs from what they do. They come across on forums as rude, disrespectful and abrasive. Almost every time, in fact!

It's quite bizarre. I'm not sure if they're unable to think outside of their own system, if they are taught to be so narrow-minded and dogmatic or what. But in any case, they just seem like pretty nasty and unfriendly people."

 

[Nobody Important]

If's and but's.....

 

[Lobo66]

Nothing wrong with pointing out common problems. Every system has its problems/weaknesses. It's better to expose them and deal with them.

As long as we all stay technical and try not to get personal (or take things personally) it should be ok.

 

[KPM]

Nothing wrong with pointing out common problems. Every system has its problems/weaknesses. It's better to expose them and deal with them.

As long as we all stay technical and try not to get personal (or take things personally) it should be ok.

And.....as pointed out....generalizing negative comments to EVERYONE in a lineage is not staying technical, is getting personal, and is "lineage bashing."

 

[Nobody Important]

New tenets of Wing Chun

1. Over-complicate Everything
2. Over-analyze Everything
3. Over-think Everything

The only martial art that is so worried about how the opponent will react to their attack that it borders on neurosis. That instead of focusing on the attack they actually focus on strategy to counter their own paranoia.

 

[LFJ]

And.....as pointed out....generalizing negative comments to EVERYONE in a lineage is not staying technical, is getting personal, and is "lineage bashing."

It wasn't to everyone in the lineage.

I was talking about TWC guys I see posting on forums, such as you, Juany, and Phil.

I pointed out a common disconnect I see almost every time one of you posts videos and describes what's happening.

Each time, I've stayed technical and even provided slow-motion gifs, diagrams, and such so we all know what we're looking at and talking about.

I haven't made any personal comments or insulted the TWC method. It is purely technical.

If you insist on taking offense to technical discussions, what can I say?
If you're only looking for agreement, there are probably TWC forums somewhere, Facebook maybe.

 

[KPM]

It wasn't to everyone in the lineage.

I was talking about TWC guys I see posting on forums, such as you, Juany, and Phil.


.

that's not what you said. How about you try to actually not be such a xxxx all the time?

 

[LFJ]

that's not what you said.

It is.

I said it's a common problem I see from TWC guys. You guys are 3 independent examples.

Obviously I have not seen everyone in the lineage post videos and describe what is being done in them.
But when I have seen this, the disconnect between action and description has been common.

I try to point that out because sometimes an outside perspective is helpful, and the discrepancy cannot be ignored if we are to have a fruitful technical discussion.

How about you try to actually not be such a xxxx all the time?

Now, this is an example of getting personal. How about we try not to go that route?