Geoff Thompson on the importance of pre-emption.

[drop bear]

Let's say mistaken then. What may appear to be a 'first strike' can be a reaction to a threat, and therefore not a first strike.

"He said he was going to hit me, and came towards me with his fists raised."

In the situation above, I've already been assaulted. Anything I do to defend myself at that point is not striking first.

I have never understood why people have to lawyerize their own morality.

I would have accept "I just really wanted to hit the guy"

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What has worked well for me over the years is, when threatened, when I'm pretty sure he's going to hit - ...

Sometime I would let my opponent to throw his first punch. When he did that, I would throw a 45 degree downward hay-maker to knock down his straight punch. After that, whether he still want to attack me or not depends on how much power I could deliver on his punching arm.

I have never understood why people have to lawyerize their own morality.

You try to punch my head. I try to punch your arm. Even in court, you are still the bad guy, and I'm still the good guy.

 

[hoshin1600]

the preemtive strike is not always a legal issue for people. its a moral one and one of fear. often there is a factor of fear. of not wanting to escalate the situation. the person has hope that there is a posibility of de escalation and walking away and if they strike first they are definitely in a fight and people have a fear of fighting and losing.
i think most often that fear of starting something they may not be able to finish is a big hurdle to a first strike.

 

[hoshin1600]

Sometime I would let my opponent to throw his first punch. When he did that, I would throw a 45 degree downward hay-maker to knock down his straight punch. After that, whether he still want to attack me or not depends on how much power I could deliver on his punching arm.

You try to punch my head. I try to punch your arm. Even in court, you are still the bad guy, and I'm still the good guy.

so... your saying you have done this in real life a few times and it worked for you?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

so... your saying you have done this in real life a few times and it worked for you?

It worked for me in many challenge fights. In 3 different fights, I had used my hay-maker to knock down my opponent. My opponent moved in so fast. My hay-maker didn't hit on his punching arm, instead, my hay-maker hit on the back of his head. I still remember that my opponent's body was knocked from straight to horizontal, and then dropped onto the ground. I didn't know my hay-maker could knock my opponent's both feet off the ground.

IMO, the "45 degree downward body rotation hay-maker" is a very powerful tool to have in SD situation. It can be used to "interrupt" all aggressive forward attack. Of course to let your opponent to run into your belly kick can be another good one.

Here is an example. The body rotation can move you to be outside of your opponent's striking path. From that angle changing, you are standing on the side of your opponent, and no longer stand in front of him. This way, your hay-maker can reach to the back of his head.

Example - use hay-maker to interrupt straight punch.

 

[Paul_D]

i am not sure i deserve the dislike designation

You don't, but then I didn't dislike your post, I disagreed with it.

but there is no question that the "no first strike" is wide spread. you can google it and get many articles on it.........
so it is a belief.

I didn't dispute any of that, I just don't agree with their interpretation.

 

[hoshin1600]

It worked for me in many challenge fights. In 3 different fights, I had used my hay-maker to knock down my opponent. My opponent moved in so fast. My hay-maker didn't hit on his punching arm, instead, my hay-maker hit on the back of his head. I still remember that my opponent's body was knocked from straight to horizontal, and then dropped onto the ground. I didn't know my hay-maker could knock my opponent's both feet off the ground.

IMO, the "45 degree downward body rotation hay-maker" is a very powerful tool to have in SD situation. It can be used to "interrupt" all aggressive forward attack. Of course to let your opponent to run into your belly kick can be another good one.

Here is an example. The body rotation can move you to be outside of your opponent's striking path. From that angle changing, you are standing on the side of your opponent, and no longer stand in front of him. This way, your hay-maker can reach to the back of his head.

Example - use hay-maker to interrupt straight punch.

the clips are really short and difficult for me to figure out.. the second one looks like a hook punch.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

the clips are really short and difficult for me to figure out.. the second one looks like a hook punch.

It's not hook punch. It's hay-maker that you hit with your fore-arm. Here is another clip.

 

[hoshin1600]

It's not hook punch. It's hay-maker that you hit with your fore-arm. Here is another clip.

oh ok i totally misunderstood then,,, you are striking with the forearm. i do the same or similar strike.

 

[Tez3]

am not sure i deserve the dislike designation,

It's the disagree one he clicked on rather than dislike.

 

[lklawson]

There is a time and place for pre-emption just like there is a time and place to de-escalate, avoid, engage after the altercation has started. There is however, no one fast rule that always will be right. That is why you have to have options...

There are no absolutes!!!

Your training should give you flexibility to make the correct choice at the right time rather than trying some times to fit a square peg in a round hole. Options.......

Let me just throw in this book right here. It's specific to the U.S. and written by an Attorney specializing in the subject.

https://www.amazon.com/Law-Self-Defense-Indispensable-Citizen/dp/0988867702

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

What has worked well for me over the years is, when threatened, when I'm pretty sure he's going to hit - was rather than hitting first, which I'm more apt to do in print than in actuality - is to move, slip, sidestep, jump back, whatever (sometimes even jam)...then anything else.

Now I'm wondering legally....if he swung and missed. Is the threat over because he's off balance, half turned and I have my grip on the back of his shoulder and have him in control, and he has no chance of hitting me for the next few seconds?
And if I then cold-cock him....have I just committed assault?

Depends on a thousand different things such as what your state/local laws define as appropriate force vs disproportionate, if the prosecutor things he can make a case and improve his personal "brand," and whether or not you have a lawyer of your own (such as is provided by "self defense insurance" like that available from The Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network).

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

I have never understood why people have to lawyerize their own morality.

They probably want to stay out of prison.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[drop bear]

They probably want to stay out of prison.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Then you pay for good legal council and let him come up with the reason you were in the right.

 

[JP3]

Let's say mistaken then. What may appear to be a 'first strike' can be a reaction to a threat, and therefore not a first strike.

"He said he was going to hit me, and came towards me with his fists raised."

In the situation above, I've already been assaulted. Anything I do to defend myself at that point is not striking first.

Technically, if he swings and misses, and you level him.... it depends on the definition of "strike."

Sorry, had to.

If "strike" means there is contact, then you did strike first. But if strike is merely a synonym to "swing," then you were second.

There's really some good philosophy points of view in this thread. I've been in enough fights/encounters/situations... whatever you need to describe such events to know that I really don't want to be in any more except in the dojo/training hall. But, that being said, there have been times and places where to initiate was required. In some of them, to protect myself, to protect someone else (more often) or to protect something (least often, and generally the least defensible to authorities except for the trespass and very likely possibility of their escalation to assault on persons). Still though... if you can avoid a fight, you avoid all the nasty things that can go wrong, for everyone.

 

[DanT]

It worked for me in many challenge fights. In 3 different fights, I had used my hay-maker to knock down my opponent. My opponent moved in so fast. My hay-maker didn't hit on his punching arm, instead, my hay-maker hit on the back of his head. I still remember that my opponent's body was knocked from straight to horizontal, and then dropped onto the ground. I didn't know my hay-maker could knock my opponent's both feet off the ground.

IMO, the "45 degree downward body rotation hay-maker" is a very powerful tool to have in SD situation. It can be used to "interrupt" all aggressive forward attack. Of course to let your opponent to run into your belly kick can be another good one.

Here is an example. The body rotation can move you to be outside of your opponent's striking path. From that angle changing, you are standing on the side of your opponent, and no longer stand in front of him. This way, your hay-maker can reach to the back of his head.

Example - use hay-maker to interrupt straight punch.

Very common in northern shaolin. The good thing about it is the contact point could be anywhere along the arm, not just the fist.

 

[drop bear]

Technically, if he swings and misses, and you level him.... it depends on the definition of "strike."

Sorry, had to.

If "strike" means there is contact, then you did strike first. But if strike is merely a synonym to "swing," then you were second.

There's really some good philosophy points of view in this thread. I've been in enough fights/encounters/situations... whatever you need to describe such events to know that I really don't want to be in any more except in the dojo/training hall. But, that being said, there have been times and places where to initiate was required. In some of them, to protect myself, to protect someone else (more often) or to protect something (least often, and generally the least defensible to authorities except for the trespass and very likely possibility of their escalation to assault on persons). Still though... if you can avoid a fight, you avoid all the nasty things that can go wrong, for everyone.

And bullying to a certain degree.

As the system generally works in favor of the bully. Or the bully works the system. (your choice) And you are trapped in a social setting. School. prision even bouncing this happens and you need to create a positive dont mess with me statement.

You may need to engage unorthodox methods of self defence to ensure your future quality of life.

No in a big city with freedom of movement you can avoid a threat by walking away. But that is because you have a whole bunch of social tools available to you. Live in a small town. (And interestingly I think Geof Thompsons england to a certain degree is a whole buch of small comunities jammed together)

And it is not some random stranger you will never see again. You will reencounter this threat constantly.

 

[lklawson]

Then you pay for good legal council and let him come up with the reason you were in the right.

Sure. I've got $30,000 right here in the couch cushions. Doesn't everyone?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Buka]

i think most often that fear of starting something they may not be able to finish is a big hurdle to a first strike.

That's a great point.

 

[drop bear]

Sure. I've got $30,000 right here in the couch cushions. Doesn't everyone?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Then you are probably going to jail.