free sparring or grappling?

[twinkletoes]

Hi Guys,

I have met two guys over the years who are both dan ranks in Ninjutsu (I don't know what affiliation, or if it's really taijutsu, or the other details...sorry). Each of their training styles are very different.

The first one trains almost exclusively with cooperative drills that look painful.

The second one trained with an emphasis on full-contact sparring that included submission grappling. He did this in most classes.

Now, I understand that ninjutsu's techniques are not designed to be ukemi-friendly the way judo/jiujitsu's are.

I'm curious though--do many of you practice the way my 2nd friend did, with lots of "competitive" activities, as opposed to cooperative drilling? It sounded unlike many schools I've seen, but I have to confess not having enough info on this one.

What do you do to train?

Thanks,

~TT

 

[phlux]

it really depends on the school / teacher that your friends trained with.

one of the "problems" with training in taijutsu/ninpo etc... is that the study is around the learning of - not the how you learn.

This means that in some dojos you will find a very hard training style - while in others they may do some rather non-dynamic things.

The truth about the Ukemi is that you really only hurt your Uke if you screw up or are an a$$hat (by hurt I mean injure - not cause pain). The techniques are designed so that when done in real combat - the enemy should not be able to protect himself with his Ukemi - but in training it is also your responsibily to protect your Uke, by letting go of the armbar at the right time etc.

A good Uke is very important to good successful training - if you have a crappy Uke, or you are a crappy Uke - then you will only be learning half of what each technique can teach you.

One of the most fundamental things that people forget is that the Uke is an ACTIVE part of your training. You should pay close attention to your Uke - and your Uke, if he is good, will help you learn by telling you when you have taken his Kamae, really got that hold etc....

If you are just powering through everything - then you arent very good.

True Taijutsu takes *no* strength - only movement.

 

[twinkletoes]

phlux,

Thanks for your reply. I understand what you've said, but if you'll forgive me, I don't think it quite addressed my question.

I understand that there are "harder" and "softer" schools out there. I also appreciate that the techniques are not designed to be easily "ukemied".

My question is: Do you (or does your school) favor an approach in which your partner is cooperating at all times, or does it include exercises like judo randori or sparring in which you resist each other or try to "win" against each other?

~TT

 

[Pervaz]

twinkletoes,

My old school (I have moved over to Systema) used to practice the first style - i.e. hard to uke, but ensure that you got your form and timing and distance correct. My teacher was against randori due to the fact that if you have padding on your body didnt move the way it should for example if you hit a pressure point or nerve the body would act in a different way with normal clothes on.. Saying that we did use pads every so often to ensure that you could hit effectively, using your body and relax..

Thats the approach I have taken with systema - good hard true knocks never hurt anyone !

P

 

[Cryozombie]

Our school is a combination of both. Most day to day training is co-operatve drills, where our instructor shows us the technique, we practice applying the technique, and allow our Uke to roll out of the technique...

We do, however, also have randori, and we do not wear pads. When we do it, we do it with the awareness of one another and the techniques, and allow our partners to safley roll out of techniques, and while we do strike each other hard enough that it causes pain and brusing from time to time, we do it with enough saftey in mind to not INJURE our partners. Despite how that sounds, we have an excellent saftey record, and NO serious injuries to anyone, so far.

Also, Randori is used in rank testing at our school... after the "skills" test, we have to demonstrate we know what we are doing in a Randori situation.

 

[[email protected]]

Hello TT, et all,

At the Manchester NH, Bujinkan Dojo, I favor a combination of both methods of student development. We train in drill fashion, move to an "aikido like" fashion of randori, but also include a grappling session, where students go one on one to submit an opponent.

I officially joined the Bujinkan in 1989, and after several years was somewhat dissillusioned by the lack of contact and realism in many practitioners. Pretending to use force on force training, is not the same as doing it, against a real resisting opponent. None of what I am writing here is a slam on the art of Budo Taijutsu, it is just that each practitioner needs to find their own truth in how they will practice and what they are trying to accomplish with the training. (ie self improvement, self protection etc)

Bufu Ikkan

Shidoshi Steve Lefebvre
www.Bujinkandojo.net

ps: Great thread and this always riles up practitioners!

 

[twinkletoes]

Steve,

Thanks for your input. When you say "Aikido-like" randori, do you mean that 1 or more attackers throw their attacks at random, but then "go-along" with the technique used by the defender? (Or am I missing it?)

Pretending to use force on force training, is not the same as doing it, against a real resisting opponent.

Amen to that!!!

Best,

~TT

 

[[email protected]]

Hello TT,

In the Aikido like randori, we allow several attackers to feed the receiver. Practice usually starts with a moderate pace and increases so the attacker is resisting during the counters. It all depends on the level of those in the drill.

Train Hard it is the Way!

Shidoshi Steve Lefebvre
www.Bujinkandojo.net

 

[phlux]

My question is: Do you (or does your school) favor an approach in which your partner is cooperating at all times, or does it include exercises like judo randori or sparring in which you resist each other or try to "win" against each other?

~TT [/B]

Oops. I personally think that sparring and competitive practice is very important to ones training. If you only do a cooperative excercise - like learning techniques, then you end up in a dojo mentality - and the reality of what you are doing is not really learned.

 

[twinkletoes]

Train Hard it is the Way!

I personally think that sparring and competitive practice is very important to ones training. If you only do a cooperative excercise ...the reality of what you are doing is not really learned.

That's exactly why I asked. Thanks for the input, gentlemen.

Anyone else?

~TT

PS - Tonight I had a friendly submission grappling match against the 2nd ninjutsu black belt I described in my first post. Man is he strong! His grappling skills are tremendous. I watched him go a couple rounds against some of my students too. He has some great legitimate skills. And he's a great guy! I love training with these kind of people....

 

[[email protected]]

Hello TT,

In my experience with many Bujinkan practitioners; many do not have adequate ground fighting skills. Especially, in a sparring environment against a skilled opponent. You are lucky to have found one!! More and more practitioners are now starting to practice "on the ground" taking Budo Taijutsu/Ninjutsu into a more modern application.


Train Hard, it is the Way!
Sensei Steve L.

www.Bujinkandojo.net

 

[r erman]

So did you find out who your second friend trains/trained with?

 

[twinkletoes]

I have not asked him who, specifically, he trained with, or to what organization they belonged. Mostly because I don't care. I don't mean that in a bad way, I mean it like this:

He has skills. We have discussed the methods that they used in training, and they are very realistic and hard training methods. This is what produced the level of skill he has.

Why would I care whose banner it was done under? Isn't that a distant priority? The main priority has been achieved: he knows how to address a variety of situations effectively.

I will say that I know this much about his training: it was not around here. He started studying at the school where I teach because he relocated from another part of the country. It had been a little while since he had trained Ninjutsu, though he had studied a couple of arts in the interim. Also, he reached shodan in about 24 months. Practice was 5 nights a week, for about 2 hours per class, and most people went home bloody.

He is a great guy, on and off the mat. He is a consciencious partner, and an asset to my class. What else is there to know?

~TT

 

[r erman]

I was just curious. Kinda sounded like a former RBWI student, in regards to the intensity of training.