frauds

[Bujingodai]

OK, I'm a member of the Bujinkan and train with indies as well. So just for the fun of it. I'd like to know who is considered to be the worst of the worst of the fakes. Are there any that you know that are not so bad, how many schools can you name.
Just to start a new conversation.

 

[Bujingodai]

I will say myself that I have met and trained with alot of losers as well. Some of them even in the Kan.

In the "Ninja" world. Dux seems to be the centre of alot and alot of studies have centred him so I'd be sceptical but would still want to meet and train with him once to get my own opinion.

Kim, yeah. He's an interesting guy. He has used my name in arguements on his board when I am not even involved LOL. So the feelings mutual. Have never met or trained. Not too miffed about that.

This year when I go down south to train, I am stopping in at 2 schools to meet them. Looking forward to seeing if the slag = what they are really like.

there is alot of negativity. have you ever trained with what would be considered a fraud and found that other than some political views they are pretty good?

Admitted most of the schools I have seen, indie or not move somewhat like a Takamatsuden school. Even when they state they are from waay different lineage. I would state that most of the schools are from ex Kans that didn't agree with something or other. That is what partially drove me away. But I still maintain membership and train within. But I doubt I would ever give up my indie sympathies and not train there either.

 

[Jeff Boler]

I don't know that I buy into the whole "fraud" thing. What makes someone a fraud? If you are creating false lineages, histories, etc., than that is fraud. However, if you openly admit that you do not belong to some traditional lineage or art form, but your technique is good and effective, does that make you a fraud? I don't think so.

I've seen far many more independents that have that ability to defend themselves than I have met in the Bujinkan. Ultimately, that's what really matters.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I don't know that I buy into the whole "fraud" thing. What makes someone a fraud? If you are creating false lineages, histories, etc., than that is fraud. However, if you openly admit that you do not belong to some traditional lineage or art form, but your technique is good and effective, does that make you a fraud? I don't think so.

I've seen far many more independents that have that ability to defend themselves than I have met in the Bujinkan. Ultimately, that's what really matters.

I have to agree. I think the secret of any martial art is that there is no secret. Hard work and training will produce good results. The only fraud would be the attempt to discount others because they weren't paying the right guy for lessons.
Sean

 

[Karasu Tengu]

Hey Dave, you know that is has been proven that I am the biggest fraud of them all. LOL artyon: %-} :idunno:

 

[Don Roley]

Hey Dave, you know that is has been proven that I am the biggest fraud of them all. LOL

As well as being a homophobic bigot.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=164472#post164472

But don't worry. I am sure that a little lack of personal integrity will not stop Dave from adding another ninjutsu style to his resume with your help.

 

[Bujingodai]

As well as being a homophobic bigot.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=164472#post164472

But don't worry. I am sure that a little lack of personal integrity will not stop Dave from adding another ninjutsu style to his resume with your help.

My resume? What the hell are you talking about. I don't claim to study all those styles. I help run a board for indies. And I like to meet and train with alot to get my own opinion. Simple as that.

 

[Don Roley]

Of course I don't expect you to admit it. But most of us tend to avoid people who we suspect of lying through their teeth. There are plenty of good instructors out there with reputations for honesty. If you want ninjutsu as it is done in Japan and not from someone that basically takes TKD and adds a hood, there are people like Manaka you can go see. If you don't care if what they do is the same as the ninjutsu you find in Japan, you can train with people like Peytonn Quinn, Vladimir Vasilov, Dan Insanto, etc. But, Dave, as long as they all themselves ninjutsu you take the time and expense to fly out to meet them even when there are quality instructors that you know are telling the truth that are closer and cheaper.

 

[Bujingodai]

Right. I go to Montreal to train with my Bujinkan instructor as well. No just because the have the Ninjutsu brand doesn't secure me. I have lots of groups I have seen that even from an Indie prospective they should be ashamed. So I don't really always disagree with you.
I do like to get different flavours of training yes, but I have taken as many trips to Buj events as Indie events.
I am not a style collector I just like getting my own view of things.

So do you really crop me up with the rest of the losers like AK?

I have also seen many Bujinkan instructors that really suck too. The Bujinkan name ensures nothing unfortunatly.

I have nothing to admit Don.

 

[Jeff Boler]

Dave-

You'll have to excuse Mr. Roley. He's convinced that all non Bujinkan school are not legitimate. However, understand that by "legitimate", he means "historically accurate." I typically think of "self-defense capabilities" when determining legitimacy. We both know of independent instructors who are much more superior "self-defense" wise to that of most Bujinkan instructors.

 

[Bujingodai]

I think Don makes some very valid arguements. I was only concerned really with being lumped in as a style collector, or some super soke.

 

[Jeff Boler]

Oh I agree with majority of what Don says. We just differ on our definitions of legitmacy.

 

[Don Roley]

Actually Jeff,

I consider people who lie frauds. If someone like Rick Tew is open about what he does, I do not consider him a fraud, even if I will say that what he does is very different from what I see listed as ninjutsu in Japan. I will say that if you want ninjutsu as it is done in Japan (since it is a Japanese art) you should not train with Tew. But as long as he is open about what he does he can not be called a fraud.

But if you lie, or make some sort of silly statement and refuse to back it up (like being trained from age three by some mysterious ninja master), then you are a fraud.

So, for the most part I agree with your statement,

If you are creating false lineages, histories, etc., than that is fraud. However, if you openly admit that you do not belong to some traditional lineage or art form, but your technique is good and effective, does that make you a fraud? I don't think so.

 

[Bujingodai]

That we agree on. I don't see a reason to create a history.

 

[Don Roley]

That we agree on. I don't see a reason to create a history.

Not just a history in terms of something that happened two centuries. I come down hard on people that make claims about what they did but can't prove. If you can't prove it because of some sort of a need for secrecy, you damn well better not be talking about it on- line.

So if someone says they trained with someone, they better be able to back it up.

And I would never train with someone that I had good reason to believe lied in order to look good. Never. I have seen many things and said that it looked like suicide to me. But I am not arrogent enough (working on it :supcool: ) to think I know enough to not make mistakes on whether something is 100% proven for the streets. I know some things will not work, but there may be things I think are good but are not. As the saying goes, it is not the alligators I can see that worries me- it's the ones I can't see that worry me.

So I have to trust the teacher to some extent. If he lies to make himself look good, he will not admit a mistake and learn from it in front of others. I speak from a bit of experience here.

 

[gozanryu]

Hi Don, would you consider one who says things, and later denies them, or one who attacks others, then attacks them whe they respond as a sort of a "liar". I can post some links (I know you like links) to someone who does just that. You do that Don. Why would you come over to this thread and attack Stevie? Really, why? Perhaps because you have a personal problem with him. But, that is not what the thread was about was it, Mr. Hijacker. You are so funny!

Back on topic, I think the "worst" fake would be one who abandons the basic tenets of MA to push an agenda. Example, talk to your students and teach, humility, patience, fielty, etc. Then not represent it in your personal life. Maybe my definition of fake is to "open" here it is: Example of a fake. Hi my name is Ken Sensei of the Daito Ryu and this is my school. I can teach you, and grade you till nidan. When in fact, I was a Daito ryu student for about 5 years, and tripped through a shodan rank, but then gathered a few years of school hopping and opened this joint. Or, lets say a guy got caught Forging Densho's, he would be a fake, the worst kind of fake. :asian: everybody relax!

 

[Don Roley]

Ken,
I called Steve a bigot because he used the "F- word" and has shown no regrets about it. If he had used the "N-word" I would call him a racist.

I also found it interesting that he took Wayne Muromoto to task for using the term "cheese smelling gaijin" in an article that details some aspects of Japanese behavior towards gaijin, and used that as an excuse to dismiss Muromoto's findings about your style and refuse to share the research he claims to have done.

Back on topic, I think the "worst" fake would be one who abandons the basic tenets of MA to push an agenda. Example, talk to your students and teach, humility, patience, fielty, etc. Then not represent it in your personal life.

Oh you mean someone who takes a haughty tone in his responses on line like
this?

 

[gozanryu]

Hey Don, I guess your kinda right there. Steve really hasnt shown repentence for his opinion. The "cheese" thing is a little bigger than what you state I think from re-reading that stuff. And the link you post to Phelps Sensie's post seems to point to the other posters arragont attacking haughty tone, than to Phelps tone. As a matter of fact, I posted to that thread asking that the naysayers "prove" there point. . . well you read it... so you know that. You also know the lack of coomon respect you showed in that thread.

"Why a guy who was a legitimate SEAL (I also checked it out with cyberseals.org and received a response that the Shannon is legitimate) would then go on to make so many claims that were almost certainly false is beyond me"

JD Mills, uh, actually, the claims arent false.

"There was a time the SEALs program was relaxed to bring in more recruits. According to the first generation of SEALS, they believed that a lot of lesser characters got in, who were subsequently weeded out later."
Ken Ku- huh?

"What rank do you have in the Japanese proficiency exam given by the Japanese goverment."

Don Roley- what? did he ever say he had been "ranked"? answer; NO

Don, lets not BS each other any more OK! You are as guilty as anybody of smack talking. I guess I should take your lead and follow you around to every board and expose your lack of character on every thread you post to. Thats what your doing for Steve, right? I mean, considering that the topic starter of this post DID NOT ask your opinion of Steve.

I would have so much more respect for you as a man if you could stand the test of your own scrutiny. I know you think that you are somehow doing good by smack talking. (even though that flies in the face of your very first Martial teachings) You really should try humility on for size, people might actually like you, rather than just recognize your "highest rank" in Japanese language proficiency, or acknowledge your accumen in Japanese history. You are like a walking Greek tragedy bro. Lighten up, be nice, accept that you can not and will not ever know everything there is to know about every Martial Artist. QUit associating yourself with these name calling pansies. Oh yeah, are you coming to SF this year? I was hoping to hook up with you for a face to face chat.


everybody relax!

Ken,
I called Steve a bigot because he used the "F- word" and has shown no regrets about it. If he had used the "N-word" I would call him a racist.

I also found it interesting that he took Wayne Muromoto to task for using the term "cheese smelling gaijin" in an article that details some aspects of Japanese behavior towards gaijin, and used that as an excuse to dismiss Muromoto's findings about your style and refuse to share the research he claims to have done.



Oh you mean someone who takes a haughty tone in his responses on line like
this?

 

[Don Roley]

You really should try humility on for size, people might actually like you, rather than just recognize your "highest rank" in Japanese language proficiency, or acknowledge your accumen in Japanese history. You are like a walking Greek tragedy bro. Lighten up, be nice, accept that you can not and will not ever know everything there is to know about every Martial Artist. QUit associating yourself with these name calling pansies.

I love it!!!! Most folks I know would say that the term "pansies" is a case of name calling, so the combination of "name calling pansies" is hypocracy at its best.

And the rest of your message can be translated as, "accept what we say without question even though we have been proven to lie about our Japanese ability, being taught by psycic means and other claims. That way you will be less arrogent."

Well excuses meeeee for pointing out that the emporer has no clothes. I get the same treatment from Frank Dux's guys, the Konigun, the Juko-kai and various other frauds and you think that treating me the same as they did is going to somehow shut me up?

 

[gozanryu]

Don, I think you would be quite suprised by the opinion many of the people you do know have about you. You are a circular argument in the textbook sense. Everybody is wrong but you. Ha! Oh and BTW, I'll ask again my evasive friend.

"Oh yeah, are you coming to SF this year? I was hoping to hook up with you for a face to face chat."