Forms - Why we do them?

[Buka]

Speaking of forms, I seem to remember you were learning a Tai Chi form, am I correct on that?

Yes. I find Tai Chi forms a different animal than any other forms I’ve experienced, though.

 

[skribs]

Yes. I find Tai Chi forms a different animal than any other forms I’ve experienced, though.

How so?

 

[Dirty Dog]

The founder of TSD actually studied Shotokan for several years before coming back to Korea sometime during the occupation. I believe he earned a 2nd degree (2nd dan) in Shotokan. Now whether or not he learned directly from Funokoshi sensei or another instructor is speculative.

Well, no, because there was no single founder of TSD. Tang Soo Do is merely the Korean pronunciation of what a Japanese speaker would pronounce Karate-Do. It was a generic term used, initially, by lots of schools. It is currently only used (as far as I am aware) by branches of the Moo Duk Kwan that left the unification effort with GM HWANG, Kee, but did not follow him when he changed the name of the system to Soo Bahk Do.
So you'd really have to specify the particular school, if you want to talk about founders.

Background: There are two basic sets of forms in most Kukkiwon schools, either the Palgwe forms or the Taegeuk forms.

Again, well, no. There are two form sets endorsed by the Kukkiwon. They are the Taegeuk (for geup ranks) and Yudanja (for Dan ranks) forms. That's it. Anything else you're teaching, while possibly quite useful, is absolutely not a part of the Kukkiwon curriculum.
We teach the Palgwae forms. I practice (and would teach, if anybody wanted to learn more forms) the Chang Hon forms. We also teach six Kicho (basic) forms. None of that is part of the Kukkiwon curriculum.

 

[skribs]

Again, well, no. There are two form sets endorsed by the Kukkiwon. They are the Taegeuk (for geup ranks) and Yudanja (for Dan ranks) forms. That's it. Anything else you're teaching, while possibly quite useful, is absolutely not a part of the Kukkiwon curriculum.
We teach the Palgwae forms. I practice (and would teach, if anybody wanted to learn more forms) the Chang Hon forms. We also teach six Kicho (basic) forms. None of that is part of the Kukkiwon curriculum.

You'll notice I didn't say "there are two types of forms as part of the Kukkiwon curriculum." I said "there are two types of forms you will typically see at Kukkiwon schools." I get what you're saying, but the fact is I hold a 2nd Dan certificate in Kukkiwon and am going for 3rd Dan next month (or maybe later in the year, depending on a knee injury that's nagging me) and have never tested on a Taegeuk form. But we've had this discussion before.

As to the Yudanja, I was more focusing on the stuff that the green, blue, and red belts would learn in my post.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Background: There are two basic sets of forms in most Kukkiwon schools, either the Palgwe forms or the Taegeuk forms. You'll also often find simpler Kibon forms in some of the earlier belts. My school, for example, has Kibon 1-5 and then Palgwe 1-8, and then the black belt forms. Our Palgwe forms are different than those I've seen at other schools, but I digress.

The form I made for our demonstration team has a lot of techniques and patterns from Palgwe 4, 5, & 6, a few of the Taegeuks (I don't remember which ones at the moment), and a few of our black belt forms. Our red belts and black belts that join demo team have a fairly easy time with the form, but we had a green belt join (about 8 or 9 years old), and she's been having a tough time because she has only learned up to Palgwe 3 so far. I tried to explain to her it's easier for everyone else because they've done most of the moves already and just need to learn the new order for them.

She saw a blue belt performing Palgwe 4 in class, and glared at me and mouthed "REALLY?"

I think I like that kid, Skribs.

 

[skribs]

I think I like that kid, Skribs.

Just her attitude in general, or because she glared at me, specifically?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Just her attitude in general, or because she glared at me, specifically?

Mostly the latter.

 

[Mark Lynn]

Well, no, because there was no single founder of TSD. Tang Soo Do is merely the Korean pronunciation of what a Japanese speaker would pronounce Karate-Do. It was a generic term used, initially, by lots of schools. It is currently only used (as far as I am aware) by branches of the Moo Duk Kwan that left the unification effort with GM HWANG, Kee, but did not follow him when he changed the name of the system to Soo Bahk Do.
So you'd really have to specify the particular school, if you want to talk about founders.

Dirty Dog
I was going by an article I read several years ago and memory at that, I wasn't aware that TSD was a common generic term like karate is or has now become, that could represent several styles. I thought it was one style that was created by an individual who mainly stuck to the using the old Heian/Pinan kata. Thank you for the correction.

 

[Mark Lynn]

A couple of random thoughts. I am picking up on the TKD forms pretty quickly, and now I know why.

You are probably right as to why General Choi would have wanted to create "new" forms that would de emphasize the Japanese and Okinawan roots of the Pyong Ahn forms. My old TSD master never mentioned it either, and we practiced those forms, along with Bassai in every class.

That said, I am thinking enough time has passed we should be able to talk about this stuff honestly, here at least, if not at the Dojang.

mrt2
I agree we should talk about this honestly. In the 1980's as I was starting my martial arts journey it was still being taught that TKD wasn't influenced by karate and they (Korean martial artists) had the whole TKD was an art that was a few thousand years old etc. etc. Then it was TKD preceded karate and actually was the original art, etc. etc. However now over time with the internet and all and people doing some serious research on the subject it is a pretty common accepted fact that TKD was influenced (grew out of) Japanese karate. Now thou TKD (in recent times) has really developed into it's own style with it's own forms that represent it's own training methodology etc. etc. and it doesn't really show the karate influence as much.

It makes sense that TKD leaders would do this (rewrite history) because it was heavily connected to their government, and considering that Japan had occupied that country why would they (the leaders) want to acknowledge any connection to the occupying country. Likewise somewhat of the same argument could be said for why karate changed when it was transported to Japan from Okinawa. In Okinawa karate was taught through forms, applications of forms, and limited sparring. In Japan the focus was on basics, kata, sparring, and the applications of forms changed to became more based on sparring more so than self defense type situations.

And as one instructor told me back in a seminar in the 80's why would the Okinawan teachers teach the Japanese their self protection arts?

For me the way the arts changed over the years and went from country to country, or how the styles changed etc. etc. has always fascinated me. If you want a good read check out the book Tae Kwon Do The Killing Art. If you are interested in some of the history of the Chungi forms as well as possible applications of them check out Stuart Anslows books. Both should be available on Amazon.

 

[Mark Lynn]

My sample size is small (2 schools) but that's been my experience at both schools. Actually, the school without the demonstration team actually emphasized MORE exactness in regular classes.

Our school has a demonstration team, a sparring club, and a self defense club, and the regular classes cover elements of all 3.

skribs
I'm sorry I meant no disrespect, I made my observation based on your description on the demo team having everyone kick at the same time, same height, same speed etc. etc. that to me calls up the vision of military preciseness; marching band, drill team, drum core, etc. etc. where everyone is having to execute things in proper order and a person can't be out of sync.

If you have that kind of an eye for exactness in execution of technique than I believe that would naturally flow through to your normal classes and the exactness of detail would be stressed.

Whereas I have none of that in my school, I do emphasize kata practice and try to align my training so that we don't do it in a way that would be looking good for the performance art aspect but rather the more so along the lines of the self defense aspect.

I got the more relaxed view on kata from my Modern Arnis training training. GM Remy allowed variation in stances moves etc. etc. because many students came from other arts. The emphasis was on the application more so than perfect form. Now in my classes we are naturally more uniformed in execution of the form (techniques etc. etc.) because I'm the head instructor and teach 95% of all of my classes, and all of my TKD students are kids. But I allow some variation in timing and stance, So I probably don't have near the exactness that you have in your school.

 

[skribs]

skribs
I'm sorry I meant no disrespect, I made my observation based on your description on the demo team having everyone kick at the same time, same height, same speed etc. etc. that to me calls up the vision of military preciseness; marching band, drill team, drum core, etc. etc. where everyone is having to execute things in proper order and a person can't be out of sync.

If you have that kind of an eye for exactness in execution of technique than I believe that would naturally flow through to your normal classes and the exactness of detail would be stressed.

Whereas I have none of that in my school, I do emphasize kata practice and try to align my training so that we don't do it in a way that would be looking good for the performance art aspect but rather the more so along the lines of the self defense aspect.

I got the more relaxed view on kata from my Modern Arnis training training. GM Remy allowed variation in stances moves etc. etc. because many students came from other arts. The emphasis was on the application more so than perfect form. Now in my classes we are naturally more uniformed in execution of the form (techniques etc. etc.) because I'm the head instructor and teach 95% of all of my classes, and all of my TKD students are kids. But I allow some variation in timing and stance, So I probably don't have near the exactness that you have in your school.

I took no offense.

In my school, the vast majority of students have only done TKD, and most of them have only done TKD here. The details we're looking at are things like:

• In your stances, are your feet correctly aligned? (And by extension your hips, shoulders, etc)
• If you're doing something with your left hand, is your right hand controlled as well (or just hanging loose at your side)
• Are you properly chambering your technique
• Are you aiming for the proper target
• Are you finishing each technique before you move onto the next or do you rush through half-done stances to get through the form

For example, from a punching position to the left, then turning to the right side and doing a block, ideally the hands would go straight from the punch to the chamber, and immediately after turning go into the block. A lot of students will drop their hands to their side, make the turn, and then bring their hands back up. These are the kinds of things I try to iron out of them, and I think that by having a set standard way of doing things, you can more easily do that.

Now, if those students instead put their hands into a sparring guard, turned, and then chambered and blocked I would understand what they were doing and be less apt to correct that motion. It's when the lack of detail leads to lack of control that I have an issue.

In class on their own form, I expect people to show their level of the form. Some students "get it" and others really struggle. So if I have two purple belts doing the form, one who gets it and one who struggles, then I expect the first one to be pristine. Front kicks at chest or head level, good snap on every technique, deep stances with correct foot and shoulder alignment, full control over both hands in every step of the form. The other kid, who may have spent the last 4-6 months essentially banging his head on the wall trying to learn this thing, as long as he does all the right steps and shows at least a basic understanding of the stances and techniques, I'm happy with him.

The same applies to adults. We have some adults who are martial arts yahoos that pick up every basic technique with very little time and learn the forms almost perfect their first class. We have other adults who lack coordination, flexibility, and who have a very hard time teaching their body new skills. To the former, I expect to see fierce techniques strong enough to take on a lion, and the details are there to make them look even better. To the latter, I am happy to see them come in and continue to work on something that's difficult to them, and I mostly give them the details that will make the form easier for them to do.

In the demo team, it's a different story. Everyone must do every move the same way, because if two people do it different, the audience sees that one of them is "wrong".

 

[Dirty Dog]

Dirty Dog
I was going by an article I read several years ago and memory at that, I wasn't aware that TSD was a common generic term like karate is or has now become, that could represent several styles. I thought it was one style that was created by an individual who mainly stuck to the using the old Heian/Pinan kata. Thank you for the correction.

Nope. Pretty much all of the kwan were founded by people whose background could match what you described. The root was Shotokan for all of them, with a smattering of additional training in Judo, Kendo or Northern Chinese styles.
I think the confusion arises because the Moo Duk Kwan (or a small part of it, at least) was the only group to break off from the unification effort and return to the name Tang Soo Do. The various kwan were founded in 1945-ish, and the name Taekwondo was adopted in 1957. So the use of Tang Soo Do by anything other than GM HWANG, Kee and his students was a fairly brief thing. And even his usage was pretty short term, since he changed the name to Soo Bahk Do in 1960.
GM HWANG changed names as often as a struggling rock band. He originally called his art Hwa Soo Do (very briefly), then Tang Soo Do, then joined the KTA, then back to TSD, then SBD.

As you said, there was a lot of nonsense spread about the roots and origins of TKD in the early days. After their country being occupied and their culture suppressed by the Japanese for so long, that's somewhat understandable. Happily, that practice has mostly died out (though not completely).

 

[zzj]

How so?

It's slow. Real slow.....

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It's slow. Real slow.....

There's also a very strong emphasis (from what little Tai Chi I've played with) on long weight shifts - shifts that wouldn't show up in other arts' forms that I'm aware of. And the weight shifts seem to have a timing with the movement of the feet that's different from what I've experienced elsewhere, or at least that's different from how it's emphasized.

 

[zzj]

There's also a very strong emphasis (from what little Tai Chi I've played with) on long weight shifts - shifts that wouldn't show up in other arts' forms that I'm aware of. And the weight shifts seem to have a timing with the movement of the feet that's different from what I've experienced elsewhere, or at least that's different from how it's emphasized.

Weight shifting is one aspect, other than that we look to check and eliminate unnecessary tension in every part of the body, correct postural alignment, elimination of muscular sensations in our moves and maintain a sense of equilibrium etc. there’s more than just those points I listed of course, but I feel that the tai chi form is like an endless test of my understanding and assimilation of the principles, it’s best for making one feel inadequate and wanting....

Edit: doing it slow just makes it more difficult and my flaws more glaring, which is the point after all.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The slow speed of the Taiji form is not because you want to do it slow. You want to coordinate your breathing with your body movement. Each move should be equal to 1 inhale, or 1 exhale. If you have just finished your 3 miles running, you should do you Taiji form in pretty fast speed.