For those who don't care for ranks

[Kung Fu Wang]

In some systems (such as the Shuai Chiao - Chinese wrestling), since the defense and counters are the 3rd degree black belt testing requirement, the beginners won't learn it until they have passed the 1st degree black belt.

The rank can be used to control the teaching. The students have to be good in "offense" before they can get into "defense". It makes no sense for students to learn how to counter a "hip throw" if they are not good to use it.

Also if you include the tournament record as part of your ranking test requirement, you can force your students to compete in tournaments.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Also if you include the tournament record as part of your ranking test requirement, you can force your students to compete in tournaments.

There are some systems where rank advancement is mostly or almost entirely through tournament performance. For instance, Judo in the USA, if your dojo functions as part of the USAJF than you get belts by competing in tournaments and winning matches. I do believe though that your sensei can promote you independently of the USAJF tournaments up to the level of high brown but to get a black belt under USAJF rules it has to be done through tournaments.

But, as its been pointed out here many times there are some people who just don't care about rank and in cases like that, you're not going to force them to go to tournaments by requiring it as part of rank advancement, not if they aren't interested in rank advancement in the first place.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

There are some systems where rank advancement is mostly or almost entirely through tournament performance. For instance, Judo in the USA, if your dojo functions as part of the USAJF than you get belts by competing in tournaments and winning matches. I do believe though that your sensei can promote you independently of the USAJF tournaments up to the level of high brown but to get a black belt under USAJF rules it has to be done through tournaments.

But, as its been pointed out here many times there are some people who just don't care about rank and in cases like that, you're not going to force them to go to tournaments by requiring it as part of rank advancement, not if they aren't interested in rank advancement in the first place.

The ACSCA has similar policy. A local instructor can only promote his students to the blue belt level. In order to offer a black belt to any student, 3 ACSCA instructors' signature will be required. IMO, this is a pretty good quality control policy.

If someone is a ACSCA member and if he is not interested in ranking, he will never become a qualified instructor through ACSCA. That's just the ACSCA policy. All ACSCA qualified instructors

- will teach students who is not interested in ranking, but
- won't teach students who won't compete in tournament.

One policy has been changed in ACSCA lately. In the past, the

- 1st degree black belt will require skill testing.
- 2nd degree black belt will require tournament record.

Since the 1st degree black belt usually will take about 6 years. If some students started their training late, after 6 years they may be too old to compete in tournament. In order to solve that problem, the ACSCA can switch the 1st degree black belt testing and the 2nd degree black belt testing. This will encourage members to test their skill in tournament when they are still young.

 

[Zero]

So it sounds like at your place that rank isn't taken too seriously and they would just as well get rid of it entirely but that they have to keep it because of the organization that they're a smaller part of, but they don't use it if they don't have to. So its almost like a place that doesn't use rank.

I can't really speak for Ballen but his description of his class fits very close to my old goju ryu club and quite close to my current goju club. And again, I am not sure you are interpreting this correctly...It is not at all that the rank itself is not taken seriously and clearly while in the dojo and regarding all things goju I personally respect my sensei and his rank - to the extent that his ability (and knowledge - and skill at imparting that knowledge to me) actually is reflective of his rank. It is just that the rank is not focused on and is not seen as a "bar" in itself in preventing "juniors" from interacting with and learning from seniors or in preventing different belt levels from sparring with each other. Sparring and training with juniors is a great way of contributing and putting something back into the life blood of the school that benefits you so much.

As someone (maybe Ballen or JKS) said, a lot can come simply from the maturity and previous experience of the student and not just their belt colour. You can have a lower belt miles ahead of a senior in fighting skill and/or ability while the senior may be far more experienced in application and depth of techniques.

A senior can be working with a junior on a lock or throw and a junior with a different background can say, "hey, have you thought about applying that lock like this, this is how they do it in [judo] and maybe it seems more efficient?"...that's a pretty open minded MA environment, I'd admit to that. But those schools are definitely out there, again, normally they have senseis that have nothing to prove anymore and have checked their own ego at the door. But why would you want to change from that type of school to a strictly structured and regimented environment (kind of like yours by the sound of things...)?

 

[mattp1511]

One of the Best Karate Senseis I ever knew was 4th dan in one style, 2nd in another, but he hadn't actually achieved a dan grade in the style he was teaching us. He had been doing this style for a good ten years! One evening the subject of belts and grading came up, and someone pointed out that if we achieved a dan grade in this style, we would 'outrank' the Sensei. He didn't care, and his reasoning for not grading to first dan, was that he liked his red/black block belt! This opened my eyes to the relevance of the colour, and to this day, my training is about me. My body, my mind, my wellbeing, not the colour that everyone else can see. In all the styles ive ever done, (ok, three! Lol) i can't remember a single move where i check what belt I'm wearing. Just a thought.

 

[PhotonGuy]

One of the Best Karate Senseis I ever knew was 4th dan in one style, 2nd in another, but he hadn't actually achieved a dan grade in the style he was teaching us. He had been doing this style for a good ten years! One evening the subject of belts and grading came up, and someone pointed out that if we achieved a dan grade in this style, we would 'outrank' the Sensei. He didn't care, and his reasoning for not grading to first dan, was that he liked his red/black block belt! This opened my eyes to the relevance of the colour, and to this day, my training is about me. My body, my mind, my wellbeing, not the colour that everyone else can see. In all the styles ive ever done, (ok, three! Lol) i can't remember a single move where i check what belt I'm wearing. Just a thought.

So he liked the look of the belt? Well just because you like the color of your belt doesn't mean you don't have to test for a higher belt. If you're teaching, you can always wear a lower colored belt and your higher colored belt you can stash it in the closet, hang it on the wall, ect. I know a case of this guy who wears this armband he really likes which he got in Muai Thai. Now, usually Muai Thai does not use any ranking system but there are some organizations that do use arm bands to designate rank. This one instructor, he had this special arm band that he liked for some reason, it had some kind of sentimental value such as he might've won a really good fight while wearing it. Anyway, it was not the highest colored armband he had but he would wear it when he trained for that reason.

 

[mattp1511]

So he liked the look of the belt? Well just because you like the color of your belt doesn't mean you don't have to test for a higher belt. If you're teaching, you can always wear a lower colored belt and your higher colored belt you can stash it in the closet, hang it on the wall, ect. I know a case of this guy who wears this armband he really likes which he got in Muai Thai. Now, usually Muai Thai does not use any ranking system but there are some organizations that do use arm bands to designate rank. This one instructor, he had this special arm band that he liked for some reason, it had some kind of sentimental value such as he might've won a really good fight while wearing it. Anyway, it was not the highest colored armband he had but he would wear it when he trained for that reason.

Without wishing to turn this into an argument, which rule says you 'have to' attempt a higher belt? Is martial arts not about the individual? The whole point of liking the belt he had was that he was satisfied with his accomplishment, something i personally would never question. His ability and technique was so amazing to watch, you could actually share his passion for his art just by watching him work, hense to this day he will always be my most admired martial artist. If your goal is to achieve the highest rank you can, then good on you. I wish you well and i believe if you are determined to achieve it I'm sure you will. But I'm sorry to say i don't share your ambition for status. We are all here because we share a passion for martial arts. And in the spirit of that shared passion, we should never question eachothers ideals or purposes (unless that ideal is evil or negative! I'm sure we'd all have something to say about that!)

 

[PhotonGuy]

Without wishing to turn this into an argument, which rule says you 'have to' attempt a higher belt? Is martial arts not about the individual? The whole point of liking the belt he had was that he was satisfied with his accomplishment, something i personally would never question. His ability and technique was so amazing to watch, you could actually share his passion for his art just by watching him work, hense to this day he will always be my most admired martial artist. If your goal is to achieve the highest rank you can, then good on you. I wish you well and i believe if you are determined to achieve it I'm sure you will. But I'm sorry to say i don't share your ambition for status. We are all here because we share a passion for martial arts. And in the spirit of that shared passion, we should never question eachothers ideals or purposes (unless that ideal is evil or negative! I'm sure we'd all have something to say about that!)

There is no rule that says you have to attempt a higher belt but there is no rule that says you shouldn't attempt a higher belt either. Im just pointing that out, that just because you like a particular belt or armband or any other symbol of rank doesn't mean you don't have to attempt to attain a higher rank. If you're instructor is satisfied with the belt he's got and doesn't care to pursue any higher rank than good for him.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Oh don't get me started. The entire school system is loosing it's mind. If a kid is bad they can't make them sit in class during recess because of some federal regulation about kids needing exercise everyday.

That's what gym class is for.

 

[JowGaWolf]

OP's obsession with the topic of ranks is more telling than anything else.

A pattern?

 

[Taiji Rebel]

Did Musashi ever hold rank?

It appears as though he developed his own way of sword fighting by honing his skills in real life encounters. Bruce Lee was mentioned above and is another who did not hold a rank as such. Bruce trained with many ranked martial artists though.

A lot of martial artists are inspired by ranks, belts, certificates and trophies. There are also a fair number who are not interested in such things. Holding a dan grade means you passed the criteria for that particular school/organization - nothing more, nothing less.

As ever, it depends on your goals and objectives - did you become interested in martial arts because of the belts and ranks, or were you driven in other ways?

 

[Hot Lunch]

When I got out of the military I had attained the rank of Sergeant. Went to work with for a security company and my rank meant nothing even though my experience and skills were superior to the person who was my supervisor. Rank attained was of little value elsewhere. In time with them I gained a higher level of ranking. I left that job having gone back to school and began working with a different company where I again started as the new guy (my previous 'rank' again meant nothing within this company). Rank means only what it means to you and the particular school, group, company, etc that has given it to you and nothing more.

Whether you know it or not, you actually benefitted from getting out of the military a non-commissioned officer. It's pretty common knowledge throughout the military for first termers that you should not leave the military below the paygrade of E5, because it's documented proof of leadership experience when it's on your DD-214. For enlisted grades beyond that, I'll agree that rank no longer matters.

 

[Hot Lunch]

I'm sure BJJ is different (never trained in it), but I don't think it's even possible to completely wipe rank from your mind until you've reached a dan grade where either you have the whole curriculum or eligibility for promotion to the next grade is years away.

When you were in school, your teacher was teaching you everything you needed to know for the exams so that you can pass them and move to the next higher grade. Even if you enjoyed the learning, even if you hated school and just wanted to finish it, whether making the next grade was #1 on your priority or not, you still cared.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

That's what gym class is for.

Are you really responding to a comment from 8 years ago?

 

[drop bear]

I'm sure BJJ is different (never trained in it), but I don't think it's even possible to completely wipe rank from your mind until you've reached a dan grade where either you have the whole curriculum or eligibility for promotion to the next grade is years away.

When you were in school, your teacher was teaching you everything you needed to know for the exams so that you can pass them and move to the next higher grade. Even if you enjoyed the learning, even if you hated school and just wanted to finish it, whether making the next grade was #1 on your priority or not, you still cared.

BJJ is different because of its open door policy. So guys like kabib are BJJ white belts.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Are you really responding to a comment from 8 years ago?

When I read my own posts that I made 8 years ago, it just sounds like I just wrote yesterday.

 

[Hot Lunch]

BJJ is different because of its open door policy. So guys like kabib are BJJ white belts.

I'm sure the length of time between promotions forces you to put it in the back of your mind. And you get the whole curriculum at blue or purple, or at least I remember reading that somewhere.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Are you really responding to a comment from 8 years ago?

Yes

 

[PhotonGuy]

Bruce Lee was mentioned above and is another who did not hold a rank as such. Bruce trained with many ranked martial artists though.

As a matter of fact Bruce Lee did hold a rank in the style he created, Jeet Kune Do. He had a ranking system for his style and you would wear a patch that would show your rank. Bruce Lee was of the top rank, of course.

As ever, it depends on your goals and objectives - did you become interested in martial arts because of the belts and ranks, or were you driven in other ways?

I was driven in other ways, but rank is still important in some ways in that it's proof of skill. By earning a rank that means you've developed the skill to a level that your instructor deems adequate for the rank you hold.

 

[Flying Crane]

As a matter of fact Bruce Lee did hold a rank in the style he created, Jeet Kune Do. He had a ranking system for his style and you would wear a patch that would show your rank. Bruce Lee was of the top rank, of course.

I was driven in other ways, but rank is still important in some ways in that it's proof of skill. By earning a rank that means you've developed the skill to a level that your instructor deems adequate for the rank you hold.

It isn’t proof of anything. It indicates a judgement call made by the instructor. His/her standards may be high or may be low. It depends. A black belt from one school may garner respect while a black belt from another school may be laughable.