Fleecing black belts

Discussion in 'Tae-Kwon-Do' started by Rumy73, Jul 29, 2013.

  1. Gwai Lo Dan

    Gwai Lo Dan 2nd Black Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2010
    Messages:
    859
    Likes Received:
    113
    Trophy Points:
    58
    I was actually talking about buying standard equipment (i.e., without a school logo) from the school. Having the school name on it is even worse in my opinion, as another school will be even less likely to allow the student to use their own equipment rather than buying it from the school.
     
  2. WaterGal

    WaterGal Master of Arts

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2012
    Messages:
    1,655
    Likes Received:
    477
    Trophy Points:
    123
    Like I said, we don't charge for demo team. I agree that it does help promote the school, so I feel like we can eat the cost.

    But I disagree with on your last point. Students should be getting something more out of demo team than pride and recognition. I can't speak for other schools, but our demo/competition team gets special training above and beyond the other students. They spend 1-2 hours a week learning things like how to do back flips, break tiles, and flashier kicks (540, etc) than we usually do in regular class. They do extra cardio endurance training. And when demo season is over they get more intense sparring training so they can do competitions.

    To be honest, that's one of the main reasons we do demo/competition team. I think it's important to have a place for the more dedicated students to get more intense training and learn extracurricular material. I think a lot of schools feel that people should have to pay extra money to get that extra value.
     
  3. Gwai Lo Dan

    Gwai Lo Dan 2nd Black Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2010
    Messages:
    859
    Likes Received:
    113
    Trophy Points:
    58
    How do you bring new students into the demo team? I imagine you want the best to be on your demo team, so I am curious about the lower ranked students who can't put on as good of a demo. Also, do the less athletic form part of the team, or is it only the best students?

    If it's only the most athletic and impressive students, is it in a way like the Russian gulags - the strong who do good work get more food and continue to get stronger, while the weak who can't do as much get less food and stay weak?
     
  4. Daniel Sullivan

    Daniel Sullivan Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    May 27, 2008
    Messages:
    6,472
    Likes Received:
    268
    Trophy Points:
    193
    Location:
    Olney, Maryland
    Understood, but I was specifically referring to schools who do charge.

    A demo/competition team is really a competition team that also does demos. Nothing wrong with that, but the idea that I should charge you for the privilege of doing all the hard work to make my school look good is an idea that I personally cannot embrace.
     
  5. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2009
    Messages:
    17,226
    Likes Received:
    4,170
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Location:
    Pueblo West, CO
    We have a really complicated, detailed, and rigid approach to the demo team.

    We announce the demo. Whoever is available and interested in doing it shows up.
     
  6. andyjeffries

    andyjeffries Master of Arts

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    1,853
    Likes Received:
    181
    Trophy Points:
    103
    Location:
    Stevenage, Herts, UK
    The current cost of Kukkiwon 1st Dan is US$70. For interest the remaining fees are (2nd=US$90, 3rd=US$120, 4th=US$150, 5th=US$300, 6th=US$350, 7th=US$450, 8th=US$275, 9th=US$275). Yes, it's not a typo, the 8th and 9th Dan costs go down (I assume because you have to go to Korea to test for those, so they charge a little less in recognition that it will cost you extra to visit Korea for them).

    Source: Grandmaster Kim, Joong-Young, President of Changmookwan, Vice-chairman of Kukkiwon High Dan Promotion Test Panel - 22nd August 2013
     
  7. Gwai Lo Dan

    Gwai Lo Dan 2nd Black Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2010
    Messages:
    859
    Likes Received:
    113
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Andy, do you know whether a foreigner can test in Korea for 1st dan by going to KKW at some designated time and paying the USD70 for a test? There was a post maybe a year ago asking that, but I don't think it was ever answered conclusively, and you seem to be "in the know".
     
  8. WaterGal

    WaterGal Master of Arts

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2012
    Messages:
    1,655
    Likes Received:
    477
    Trophy Points:
    123
    We have open try-outs. Anyone that can do all their forms correctly, break some boards, run two miles and show good attitude can be on the team. Even if they're a yellow belt. (I actually really like having lower belts on the team, because it shows both the students and the audience that they can learn cool things at our school even without studying for years.)

    More experienced or acrobatic/athletic people are obviously going to be able to do more at the demo, but everybody gets to do something, even if it's just breaking a few boards and doing Taegeuk 1.
     
  9. WaterGal

    WaterGal Master of Arts

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2012
    Messages:
    1,655
    Likes Received:
    477
    Trophy Points:
    123
    Sure, and I was explaining why some other schools might decide to charge, because it involves a lot of extra work and money on the master's part.

    Not really, at least not with us. People can choose to do competitions, demos, or both. Competitions around here are mostly held when it's too cold to do demos, so we can focus on one or the other depending on the time of year.

    ETA: I actually prefer demos over competitions, because they teach cooperation and don't cost the students money.
     
  10. Daniel Sullivan

    Daniel Sullivan Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    May 27, 2008
    Messages:
    6,472
    Likes Received:
    268
    Trophy Points:
    193
    Location:
    Olney, Maryland
    The two aren't really comparable. For the student, demos are like a grading in that they require the student to perform at peak ability in front of others. A demo can also allow for a student to show a measure of creativity. I was asked to create my own form for a demo some time ago. It was a lot of fun to do and it was a task that required me to take into consideration different elements of the art and make a coherent expression of the art.

    Competition allows the students to test their skills in a tallent pool larger than that of their own school and generally require the student to be in top condition and to train particularly hard, generally harder than for demos precisely because of the competitive element.

    Demos and competitions are both of value to the student, but for different reasons.
     
  11. andyjeffries

    andyjeffries Master of Arts

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    1,853
    Likes Received:
    181
    Trophy Points:
    103
    Location:
    Stevenage, Herts, UK
    I'm due to speak to the Kukkiwon about another matter, but the guy I need to speak to isn't working today. When I speak to him (hopefully later today or tomorrow) I'll ask him for you.
     
  12. Gwai Lo Dan

    Gwai Lo Dan 2nd Black Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2010
    Messages:
    859
    Likes Received:
    113
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Thanks Andy. I would guess that if it is possible, the test would be in Korean, so the challenge for non-Korean speakers would be to understand. For instance, if I were told to in Korean to do a front leg roundhouse, all I would understand is the "roundhouse" part, and I'd do a rear-leg roundhouse. If possible, I'd try to wait 1 second and see what one of the Koreans is doing!
     
  13. Jaeimseu

    Jaeimseu 3rd Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    912
    Likes Received:
    263
    Trophy Points:
    78
    Location:
    Austin, Texas, USA
    The test is conducted in Korean, however there is a sign with a number for poomsae, and testers are usually in groups of 10 or a little more, so if you're unsure of a command then you can take a peek at the others around you.

    The typical test consists of some basic movements, kicking combinations in the air(no targets), a couple of poomsae, and then one "round" of sparring (anywhere from 30-90 seconds).

    Hopefully Andy can give a definitive answer, but I was under the impression that you needed 6 months residence to test at Kukkiwon.

    Sent from my SHV-E210K using Tapatalk 2
     
  14. andyjeffries

    andyjeffries Master of Arts

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    1,853
    Likes Received:
    181
    Trophy Points:
    103
    Location:
    Stevenage, Herts, UK
    I just spoke to a friend at the Kukkiwon. She said that only skip dans can be performed at Kukkiwon for less than 8th Dan. So no non-resident foreigner could do a test at Kukkiwon for 1st Dan. If they can get a 4th Dan or higher to recommend them for jump dan to 2nd Dan, they could do that.

    I think there may be access methods if you go through (and have a good relationship with) your kwan, but aside from that it's a no go.
     
  15. WaterGal

    WaterGal Master of Arts

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2012
    Messages:
    1,655
    Likes Received:
    477
    Trophy Points:
    123
    I agree with that, but I mean with finite time and resources, I'd choose demos and training for them over competitions and training for that (even though logistically/organizationally demos are more work and expense for us). I think, as the school and team grows, though, we'll have to see what people's preferences are and work with that.
     
  16. WaterGal

    WaterGal Master of Arts

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2012
    Messages:
    1,655
    Likes Received:
    477
    Trophy Points:
    123
    That's interesting. Mr WaterGal was interested in doing his 5th at KKW, because it would be cool and all that, but GM dissuaded him on the grounds that being severely jet-lagged in an unfamiliar place where the test is entirely conducted in Korean might not lead to the best possible test performance. He seemed to think it would be possible for him to arrange it, but like you say there might be access methods for a Korean grandmaster that others don't have. Or he just might not know.
     
  17. Koshiki

    Koshiki Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2013
    Messages:
    424
    Likes Received:
    137
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Wow. My original schools BB testing fees are all in the $50-100 range... That said, it's not exactly an affluent area, fees haven't increased in the 13 years I've been there, and the Shihan is among the worst businessmen I have ever met...123
     

Share This Page