Fixing the training model

[Martial D]

Eh pot and kettle for thee, you claim you do not read then you reply so ...........................................................

What? Why are so many of your posts nonsense?

And what's with your weird period fetish?

,................... Dot dot dot?

 

[pdg]

And what's with your weird period fetish?

Now that's a euphemism*, well done



*well, it would be here.

Whatever you do, do not do a google.co.uk image search for "period fetish"...

Seriously, don't.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Now that's a euphemism*, well done



*well, it would be here.

Whatever you do, do not do a google.co.uk image search for "period fetish"...

Seriously, don't.

Works here, too.

 

[Buka]

I just went back to page one, couldn’t for the life of me remember what the hell this thread was about.

Steve - Interesting concept, applying a competitive training model to a style, any style, would cause one to learn it faster. I’m not really sure if it would be faster. But I think it would be more practical in real world application.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I just went back to page one, couldn’t for the life of me remember what the hell this thread was about.

Steve - Interesting concept, applying a competitive training model to a style, any style, would cause one to learn it faster. I’m not really sure if it would be faster. But I think it would be more practical in real world application.

Wait, there was a point to this thread??

Oh, right. Yes. I agree it would tend to ensure a better focus on testing both techniques and practitioners.

 

[pdg]

I just went back to page one, couldn’t for the life of me remember what the hell this thread was about.

Steve - Interesting concept, applying a competitive training model to a style, any style, would cause one to learn it faster. I’m not really sure if it would be faster. But I think it would be more practical in real world application.

Wait, there was a point to this thread??

Oh, right. Yes. I agree it would tend to ensure a better focus on testing both techniques and practitioners.

Kind of yes, kind of no, sometimes.

Putting a competitive slant on the training would very likely make development faster.

But, it would also very likely restrict the variation of application.

This is the bit that could be good or bad...

Any competition really requires a ruleset - competition implies trying to win, so you need a framework to judge what constitutes a win.

As an example, people who train toward Olympic style tkd competition get very good at trying to win under those rules - but are those rules necessarily good for developing "street" application?

Someone in a tkd school with that sort of training would probably be better at that faster than me, because that's different to my training - but outside those rules, would they necessarily be able to do anything if I punched toward their head, or clinched them, or swept them?

 

[Hanzou]

The problem is that many traditionalists don't view their training model as an issue. They think their art was handed down by some god who was infallible, and their style from the Ming Dynasty is perfect. Thus when they get clowned by someone from the "MMA" styles they blame the stylist who somehow didn't "get it".

In reality, their training simply sucks for that purpose (fighting).

 

[pdg]

My point above really is that a competitive model would hasten development of the portions of the style that are valuable within the competition ruleset.

There is much more to kkw tkd than is used within the common competition rules, but because it's disallowed or low value within the structure of the established competition it doesn't get much training time in comparison.

 

[pdg]

The problem is that many traditionalists don't view their training model as an issue. They think their art was handed down by some god who was infallible, and their style from the Ming Dynasty is perfect. Thus when they get clowned by someone from the "MMA" styles they blame the stylist who somehow didn't "get it".

In reality, their training simply sucks for that purpose (fighting).

Depends on the sort of "fighting" you're talking.

Yeah, sure, a few traditionalists get beaten when they step into an mma competition arena (and let's be fair here, exactly half of the mma people who step into the octagon lose too).

But these awesome mma fighting experts - they're no more immune to someone wrapping a 2 by 4 around their head on a petrol station forecourt and being dumped in a coma - as has been proved on video...

 

[Hanzou]

Depends on the sort of "fighting" you're talking.

Yeah, sure, a few traditionalists get beaten when they step into an mma competition arena (and let's be fair here, exactly half of the mma people who step into the octagon lose too).

It's not a few, and its not just in a MMA competition arena. There's plenty of examples of traditionalists getting rolled over in challenge matches as well.

But these awesome mma fighting experts - they're no more immune to someone wrapping a 2 by 4 around their head on a petrol station forecourt and being dumped in a coma - as has been proved on video...

Yeah, I'm sure your local Tai Chi sifu or Goju Ryu sensei would do so much better in such a scenario.

 

[pdg]

Yeah, I'm sure your local Tai Chi sifu or Goju Ryu sensei would do so much better in such a scenario.

I didn't say they'd do better.

But I've seen no evidence that they'd necessarily do any worse - except they may be slightly less likely to be the initial antagonist.

 

[Hanzou]

I didn't say they'd do better.

But I've seen no evidence that they'd necessarily do any worse - except they may be slightly less likely to be the initial antagonist.

Considering that their general fighting ability is suspect, I would say they would do FAR worse than someone doing one of the MMA based styles.

 

[pdg]

Considering that their general fighting ability is suspect, I would say they would do FAR worse than someone doing one of the MMA based styles.

You're entitled to your opinion on both counts.

Doesn't mean you're right or wrong - it's only your opinion.

 

[Hanzou]

You're entitled to your opinion on both counts.

Doesn't mean you're right or wrong - it's only your opinion.

I dont see any tai chi or goju guys stomping MMA OR Bjj guys. Do you?

 

[pdg]

I dont see any tai chi or goju guys stomping MMA OR Bjj guys. Do you?

I don't see any getting a plank wrapped around their head as retribution either.

 

[Hanzou]

I don't see any getting a plank wrapped around their head as retribution either.

??????

So you're saying that Goju and Tai Chi guys are carrying planks with them when they fight?

 

[pdg]

??????

So you're saying that Goju and Tai Chi guys are carrying planks with them when they fight?

No.

 

[Steve]

Kind of yes, kind of no, sometimes.

Putting a competitive slant on the training would very likely make development faster.

But, it would also very likely restrict the variation of application.

This is the bit that could be good or bad...

Any competition really requires a ruleset - competition implies trying to win, so you need a framework to judge what constitutes a win.

As an example, people who train toward Olympic style tkd competition get very good at trying to win under those rules - but are those rules necessarily good for developing "street" application?

Someone in a tkd school with that sort of training would probably be better at that faster than me, because that's different to my training - but outside those rules, would they necessarily be able to do anything if I punched toward their head, or clinched them, or swept them?

Great point, and I agree. Competition restricts the context. So, on one hand, you are focusing development through a goal oriented application. Down side is that itmis specific, and so doesn't account for many things.

This is, however, true for any application. Cops learn skills, some which are relevant to civilian self defense. But policing is a very specific skillset, and there are gaps that must Be addressed. Same is true for bouncing, soldiering, or any other application.

 

[Steve]

My point above really is that a competitive model would hasten development of the portions of the style that are valuable within the competition ruleset.

There is much more to kkw tkd than is used within the common competition rules, but because it's disallowed or low value within the structure of the established competition it doesn't get much training time in comparison.

Agreed. The answer then is to broaden the scope. In other words, encourage wider and more varied application. Grappling has many different rulesets. Gi, nogi, sub only, yiunname it up to and including MMA.

 

[Steve]

Depends on the sort of "fighting" you're talking.

Yeah, sure, a few traditionalists get beaten when they step into an mma competition arena (and let's be fair here, exactly half of the mma people who step into the octagon lose too).

But these awesome mma fighting experts - they're no more immune to someone wrapping a 2 by 4 around their head on a petrol station forecourt and being dumped in a coma - as has been proved on video...

How does one train to defend against the surprise 2x4 to the head at the petrol station? Or said another way, would the situationally aware guy who can fight be worse off in this situation than the situationally aware guy who cannot?