Fixing the training model

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

YOU know they're committing fraud against your family. That's my point.

Oh, absolutely. And I would try to convince my family and the guy that "hey, you're in a pyramid scheme. Stop that now." But, it still wouldn't be considered fraud from them, IMO, in the same way I wouldn't think my family member is committing fraud when he tells some other chump about the scheme.

 

[Hanzou]

Oh, absolutely. And I would try to convince my family and the guy that "hey, you're in a pyramid scheme. Stop that now." But, it still wouldn't be considered fraud from them, IMO, in the same way I wouldn't think my family member is committing fraud when he tells some other chump about the scheme.

Well it doesn't matter what they personally believe, its still fraud. I'm sure there's plenty of killers who don't think they're actually committing a crime when they're murdering people, but fortunately saner minds think otherwise.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Well it doesn't matter what they personally believe, its still fraud. I'm sure there's plenty of killers who don't think they're actually committing a crime when they're murdering people, but fortunately saner minds think otherwise.

Two definitions of fraud from google:
"wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain." and "a person or thing intended to deceive others, typically by unjustifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities.". If you truly believe something, telling others that thing is not you deceiving them for gain.

 

[Tez3]

YOU know they're committing fraud against your family. That's my point.

You are using the word 'fraud' in the way that civilians often do, I use it in the proper legal manner. the definition of fraud is that the person

• made a false representation
• dishonestly
• knowing that the representation was or might be untrue or misleading
• with intent to make a gain for himself or another, to cause loss to another or to expose another to risk of loss.

The instructor has not demonstrated any point of that definition. The operative word here is 'dishonestly'. Where the instructor believes he is doing the best job he can and honestly believes, in good faith, that the techniques he teaches are workable he is not committing fraud. If you believe he is wrong then yes tell your family so, explain why you think he's wrong and leave them to decide but don't go chucking around allegations of fraud or of scamming.

 

[Hanzou]

Two definitions of fraud from google:
"wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain." and "a person or thing intended to deceive others, typically by unjustifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities.". If you truly believe something, telling others that thing is not you deceiving them for gain.

Teaching people BS no-touch KOs is the epitome of deceiving others and unjustifiably claiming accomplishments or qualities. We even have the financial component to boot.

 

[Tez3]

"A representation is defined as "false" if it is untrue or misleading and the person making it knows that it is, or might be, untrue or misleading. Actual knowledge that the representation might be untrue is required not awareness of a risk that it might be untrue."

Fraud Act 2006 UK

 

[Hanzou]

You are using the word 'fraud' in the way that civilians often do, I use it in the proper legal manner. the definition of fraud is that the person

• made a false representation
• dishonestly
• knowing that the representation was or might be untrue or misleading
• with intent to make a gain for himself or another, to cause loss to another or to expose another to risk of loss.

The instructor has not demonstrated any point of that definition. The operative word here is 'dishonestly'. Where the instructor believes he is doing the best job he can and honestly believes, in good faith, that the techniques he teaches are workable he is not committing fraud. If you believe he is wrong then yes tell your family so, explain why you think he's wrong and leave them to decide but don't go chucking around allegations of fraud or of scamming.

So the instructor is either delusional, stupid, or purposely deceiving his students.

I go for option #3, and frankly, even if he is stupid or delusional (or both), he's still deceiving his students.

 

[Tez3]

Teaching people BS no-touch KOs is the epitome of deceiving others and unjustifiably claiming accomplishments or qualities. We even have the financial component to boot.

Incorrect.

So the instructor is either delusional, stupid, or purposely deceiving his students.

I go for option #3, and frankly, even if he is stupid or delusional (or both), he's still deceiving his students.

He may well be delusional, he may well be stupid but neither of those is a criminal offence.
He could be said to be deceiving his students but then we have many cases of that especially in SD classes. it's a common problem in martial arts that many SD taught is about as useful as a chocolate frog, the instructors deceiving their students into thinking they can defend themselves. His 'no touch KO' is as useful as telling students to gouge eyes out etc etc etc.

 

[Tez3]

so, just before I get off to bed, does this video prove BJJ is bad? No, it just proves my point there's plenty of videos about people not doing things properly.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So if some guy was scamming your family member out of money, would it be fraud if your family member didn't realize that they were getting scammed and thought the con-man was a nice guy?

I think she was more talking about what the instructor might believe.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Two definitions of fraud from google:
"wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain." and "a person or thing intended to deceive others, typically by unjustifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities.". If you truly believe something, telling others that thing is not you deceiving them for gain.

That is the key difference, if I'm not mistaken, for both legal and lay definitions. If you believe something, it's not lying (or fraud) - it's just being wrong.

 

[Hanzou]

He may well be delusional, he may well be stupid but neither of those is a criminal offence.
He could be said to be deceiving his students but then we have many cases of that especially in SD classes. it's a common problem in martial arts that many SD taught is about as useful as a chocolate frog, the instructors deceiving their students into thinking they can defend themselves. His 'no touch KO' is as useful as telling students to gouge eyes out etc etc etc.

Just fyi, teaching people BS martial arts isn't a criminal offense either. That still doesn't make it right, nor should we excuse it just because ignorant people happily participate in the BS.

so, just before I get off to bed, does this video prove BJJ is bad? No, it just proves my point there's plenty of videos about people not doing things properly.

Frankly, if that's the worst they can find from Bjj, then the MA is in a very good place.

Also that video is great reminder why slams are illegal in competition. Yikes!

 

[Steve]

I've no idea whether they would or wouldn't, my point though is that if he is teaching honestly then it's not fraud. He can certainly be teaching incompetently, badly, wrongly and a lot of other 'lys' but if he believes he's teaching it because it works ( and he had to have been taught by someone to do it) then we cannot accuse him of defrauding anyone.

Now a lot of others are also teaching badly including some in BJJ, I won't accuse them of fraud either. I've seen BJJ people who really do think that that all other styles are inferior, something they often accuse others in martial arts of doing.

What is annoying however is some people's assumption that only they 'test' their style, only they can say their style works because of that. The assumption that all karate schools teach the same thing and that it doesn't work is ridiculous, as most know there are many styles of karate including mine, Wado Ryu which includes take downs, grappling moves etc. It did since it's inception. There is a certain kind of arrogance in thinking that one knows it all because of just a few things one has seen.

Is a cult leader a fraud? What if he really believes he's the 2nd coming?

 

[pdg]

He may well be delusional, he may well be stupid but neither of those is a criminal offence.

Sometimes, that fact is a real shame

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Is a cult leader a fraud? What if he really believes he's the 2nd coming?

How do you know he's not the second coming?

 

[pdg]

Frankly, if that's the worst they can find from Bjj, then the MA is in a very good place.

I think we all know it's far from the worst out there.

 

[Hanzou]

Sometimes, that fact is a real shame

That "BJJ instructor" should feel fortunate that he isnt operating in the states....

 

[pdg]

Is a cult leader a fraud? What if he really believes he's the 2nd coming?

He's probably a "fraud" in the colloquial sense of the word, but not in the legal sense (at least not if he really believes it).

That's why cults run for as long as they do - until or unless it reaches a point where there is actual criminal activity (amassing of illegal weapons, tax issues, assaults, etc.) then no crime has been committed.

There's another group that do the same sort of thing perfectly legally and with almost total social acceptance. They can't prove what they perpetuate, they often ask for money, they expect unquestioning belief and loyalty and they ask their followers to recruit others... They're called something like "clergy" I believe.

 

[Steve]

How do you know he's not the second coming?

the same way I know that you can't be an expert without experience. But really, I could care more.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Is a cult leader a fraud? What if he really believes he's the 2nd coming?

Not if he believes it. Silly and misinformed, deluded, but not a fraud.