Finger Whips

phoenix

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I have been having a discussion with some friends regarding finger whips (aka basically similar to the Crane Finger Whips found in AK's Finger Set). Let's set up a quick scenario. Take Sword and Hammer, eliminate the initial handsword and make it a Finger Whip to the eyes (so the whip's trajectory is to your flank rather than straight ahead). The rest of the technique can remain the same.

When executing this finger whip (or one similar), IDEALLY, what part of your hand should make contact with the opponents eyes? And Why?

Some options:
a. The very tips of the fingers/fingernail surface
b. The first knuckle joint down from the fingertips
c. The longer, flatter 'middle' portion of the finger (as if curling your hands halfway to a fist where the portion of the finger between first and second joint/knuckle are the striking surface)
d. Other

I have my own thoughts, but don't want to prejudice my own question just yet.

To add a bit more spin, does the striking surface you are utilizing for the finger whip vary based on target (eyes vs. nose vs. cheek) or would you use the same striking surface regardless of the target?

I look forward to your replies!

Thanks.

Sean
 

mantis

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it's probably wont be THAT accurate. It's difficult to say i want to hit them with the nails! because it probably wont happen, not even in slow motion. But usually you want to produce "stinging" sensation which happens with the ending parts of your fingers. fingers and wrists have to be relaxed. what works best with finger whipping or stinging is to bring the opponent's face forward. this will make the gap closer and will surprise the opponent and this is what makes finger whipping most effective.
 

bushidomartialarts

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i'm not too keen on finger whips. they rely on a level of accuracy that's pretty rare in the chaos of an actual tussel.

i've practiced kenpo most of my adult life and i absolutely love it. but there are some pieces of kenpo that seem like a good idea on the mat, with a cooperative partner, that i just don't see working on the street.

finger whips are on that list.

that said, the motions and concepts behind a finger whip are valuable: relaxed motion hits harder than rigid motion, for example...
 

Brother John

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Finger whip to the eyes... the tips of the fingers.
other targets (Neck...etc.) further up the finger, maybe even first knuckle.

Good question...

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whitedragon_48

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I've used finger whips in many altercations at work (Prison). They work very good against "soft" or sensitive targets like ST9 (Vagus Nerve on the side of the neck), the side of the temple, eyes and the groin . It an almost invisible set-up hit that is almost imposible to see coming and opens a very wide door for follow ups. The trick with them is delivery and speed. You must generate a lot of speed so your fingers develope a high tail-end speed needed for a good hit. Hand conditioning helps too but focus on speed and relaxation.
 

Brother John

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White dragon makes a good point about the need, the need for speed; and especially the prerequisite of relaxation in order to facilitate such speed.

I understand the concern about the cancelation of the punch, but I do think that a whip that connects to the eye ball will work well.

Your Brother
John
 
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phoenix

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sword and hammer? is a finger whip going to cancel that right punch he's winding up?

Understood, but my question was primarily regarding throwing a finger whip into a quick scenario for discussion of the strike itself, not for discussion of the scenario itself.

Sean
 
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phoenix

phoenix

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I've used finger whips in many altercations at work (Prison). They work very good against "soft" or sensitive targets like ST9 (Vagus Nerve on the side of the neck), the side of the temple, eyes and the groin . It an almost invisible set-up hit that is almost imposible to see coming and opens a very wide door for follow ups. The trick with them is delivery and speed. You must generate a lot of speed so your fingers develope a high tail-end speed needed for a good hit. Hand conditioning helps too but focus on speed and relaxation.

Whitedragon, thanks...tail end speed is a good way of putting it. Nice to hear of someone who has used it in a real scenario. It's one of those shots I would think that I would never use. It's all about the vocabulary ;-)

Thanks.

Sean
 

pete

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Understood, but my question was primarily regarding throwing a finger whip into a quick scenario for discussion of the strike itself, not for discussion of the scenario itself.

Sean
sorry, but... it still doesnt fit. the finger whip doesn't stand on its own, as a checking method it is non-existantant. the strike assumes the scenario has been built around its use, and there is already a method of control in place. in sword and hammer, the sword is the check, along with the pin and your right leg.

take finger set, where the finger whip is on display. the prior move to executing the whips puts us in a position for a nice wrist lock (low hand palm up on the opponents elbow, upper hand palm down grasping the opponents knife edge side of the hand) the finger whips are in there to either illustrate a strike after controlling your opponent, or even-if he is not locked securely and attempts to escape.

take locked wing for another example, where the finger whip may be inserted. youve already secured his right wrist, extended his right leg, and smashed him in the jaw with your left elbow... on the way to the wrap around, the finger whip can be used as further distraction or damage depending on your intent.

so, yes the whips are in the system, yes they can be inserted or even substituted, but, be careful not to remove the principles that may be associated with the weapons originally desinged for the technique.

pete
 

MJS

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I have been having a discussion with some friends regarding finger whips (aka basically similar to the Crane Finger Whips found in AK's Finger Set). Let's set up a quick scenario. Take Sword and Hammer, eliminate the initial handsword and make it a Finger Whip to the eyes (so the whip's trajectory is to your flank rather than straight ahead). The rest of the technique can remain the same.

When executing this finger whip (or one similar), IDEALLY, what part of your hand should make contact with the opponents eyes? And Why?

Some options:
a. The very tips of the fingers/fingernail surface
b. The first knuckle joint down from the fingertips
c. The longer, flatter 'middle' portion of the finger (as if curling your hands halfway to a fist where the portion of the finger between first and second joint/knuckle are the striking surface)
d. Other

I have my own thoughts, but don't want to prejudice my own question just yet.

To add a bit more spin, does the striking surface you are utilizing for the finger whip vary based on target (eyes vs. nose vs. cheek) or would you use the same striking surface regardless of the target?

I look forward to your replies!

Thanks.

Sean

Good thread! I'm more along the lines of option c. You should get some good results regardless of the target, be it the eyes, nose, face area, etc. I like to allow myself that extra length on the finger, rather than trying to pinpoint and hope that I make contact with the tip of the finger.

Mike
 

MJS

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sword and hammer? is a finger whip going to cancel that right punch he's winding up?

Its early yet, so bear with me on this. Wouldn't you think that the finger whip to the face is still going to get a reaction? Maybe I'm just not following what you're saying here, but I'd imagine that a hand, smacking the guy across the face would cancel something.

Mike
 

whitedragon_48

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Again, it depends how you use it. To the eyes causes blinding (pun intended) pain. To the side of the neck (ST9) and temple causes momentary disorientation to unconciousness (depending on speed and mass). Me, myself, I follow it by by a quick short outside handsword to the temple or side of neck (depending where the whip landed, i.e., whip to the neck, chop to the temple) followed by another short hammer to the sternum or floating ribs then a side or rising (obscure elbow) if needed. This tech can be done in a second or less and really puts 'em down. Its sort of an ambush technique that works best when you see the attack coming, timing and awareness is key here.

The finger whip is not without its merits. But is has to beused properly. Every move in the MAs has its place, we must know where it is or it will not work.
 

mantis

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agreed. finger whips work best in close ranges to get out of lock or choke situation. Imagine yourself being choked. Then if you apply downward force to the choker's elbows, his face becomes closer to the back of ur palms. The whip stings and distracts and you're disengaged... for instance, that is!
 

Touch Of Death

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it's probably wont be THAT accurate. It's difficult to say i want to hit them with the nails! because it probably wont happen, not even in slow motion. But usually you want to produce "stinging" sensation which happens with the ending parts of your fingers. fingers and wrists have to be relaxed. what works best with finger whipping or stinging is to bring the opponent's face forward. this will make the gap closer and will surprise the opponent and this is what makes finger whipping most effective.
Practice helps with accuracy. Sing the Cure's "That's Accuracy" to yourself while practicing.
Sean
 

pete

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It should; its the same basic motion as the chop.
no, its actually the opposite motion. a finger whip, just like an actual whip, gets its power from the snap incurred when its direction is changed... therefore, the motion will be traveling away from the attacker at the point of contact.

the handsword, like and actual sword, gets its power from thrusting or cutting into the target, therefore, the motion will be traveling into the attacker at the point of contact.

one may act to bring actual pull the right punch towards you, while the other will effectively cancel the width and depth dimensions.

the whip MAY act to abort the punch, or MAY cause the punch to be mis-directed, but would argue that it doesn't constitute a dimensional check.

pete.
 

Touch Of Death

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no, its actually the opposite motion. a finger whip, just like an actual whip, gets its power from the snap incurred when its direction is changed... therefore, the motion will be traveling away from the attacker at the point of contact.

the handsword, like and actual sword, gets its power from thrusting or cutting into the target, therefore, the motion will be traveling into the attacker at the point of contact.

one may act to bring actual pull the right punch towards you, while the other will effectively cancel the width and depth dimensions.

the whip MAY act to abort the punch, or MAY cause the punch to be mis-directed, but would argue that it doesn't constitute a dimensional check.

pete.
Thats not true. I don't need to pull my arm back to get a whip. I only need to stop and let my fingers continue toward the target. You are reading too much into the word whip.
Sean
 

Touch Of Death

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A chop should have a return motion as well. Either way the untintentional is possible; so even if the chop cancels intention more, you can still get hit with the right. Both strikes should go out and return on the same path.
Sean
 

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