"Fighting" with Wing Chun weapons?

[geezer]

In my lineage, the pole, and especially the bart cham dao, are introduced very late in the training. The pole form and exercises are begun generally after Biu Tze form, and often after the dummy form is started (a minimum of 6 or so more years in training). The Bart Cham Dao is taught only to those nearing master-level (15+ years in).

What this means is that so few are trained in the weapons that 1. They do not contribute to the empty-handed skills of the vast majority who train in our system, and 2. Any chance at developing practical skill with weapons through regular drilling and sparring with a variety of opponents simply cannot happen. A few at our association headquarters may get that chance, but it simply can't happen at branch schools at all!

Fortunately I also train and teach a branch of Escrima that dovetails very nicely with our VT system and gives me the chance to regularly drill weapons techniques with partners in a way that is not happening with our traditional VT weapons.

Applying our Escrima concepts, especially concept of "transition", I have been able to make some practical sense of the traditional VT/WC weapons. Otherwise, I'd pretty much write-off the VT/WC weapons as only for "prestige" and as supplemental training for strength (pole) and footwork (BCD). --At least the way our group teaches them.

How about the rest of you? Do you start weapons training earlier and practice it in a more functional way?

 

[Jsunlx]

In my lineage, the pole, and especially the bart cham dao, are introduced very late in the training. The pole form and exercises are begun generally after Biu Tze form, and often after the dummy form is started (a minimum of 6 or so more years in training). The Bart Cham Dao is taught only to those nearing master-level (15+ years in).

What this means is that so few are trained in the weapons that 1. They do not contribute to the empty-handed skills of the vast majority who train in our system, and 2. Any chance at developing practical skill with weapons through regular drilling and sparring with a variety of opponents simply cannot happen. A few at our association headquarters may get that chance, but it simply can't happen at branch schools at all!

Fortunately I also train and teach a branch of Escrima that dovetails very nicely with our VT system and gives me the chance to regularly drill weapons techniques with partners in a way that is not happening with our traditional VT weapons.

Applying our Escrima concepts, especially concept of "transition", I have been able to make some practical sense of the traditional VT/WC weapons. Otherwise, I'd pretty much write-off the VT/WC weapons as only for "prestige" and as supplemental training for strength (pole) and footwork (BCD). --At least the way our group teaches them.

How about the rest of you? Do you start weapons training earlier and practice it in a more functional way?

I knew an instructor who would teach the pole right after Siu Lim Tao. It wasn't that way at my old school from the same lineage, so I thought it was interesting. Personally I think SLT, the pole, the dummy, CK, the knives and then BG is a good order.

It seems that the order the weapons forms are taught in is more of tradition than anything. But in my opinion, it would be much more beneficial to developing certain skills early on that would transfer over better in the progression if the weapons forms were taught earlier.

 

[DanT]

I learned the knives after CK. We spar with the knives (padded ones) all the time. We also spar with our staff's (but we cover them in those noodles from the beach).

 

[KangTsai]

It's a long stick... You can fight with long sticks.

 

[DanT]

I feel that fighting with the weapons is a fundamental part of all styles of kung fu. It's a part of the art that shouldn't be neglected. The funny part is that there's only two weapons. Never mind northern Shaolin (staff, broadsword, straight sword, spear, meteor hammer, quan do, etc).

 

[Danny T]

Geezer, In my learning I did the WC weapons exercises during Biu Jee and began the weapon forms & drills after completing Biu Jee.
Having bladed weapon and spear training from Pekiti-Tirsia along with having performed the wc weapon exercises it was quite easy to extrapolate much of the weapons work before learning the forms. The subsequent weapon drills and sparring re-enforced my understanding was correct.

I teach and utilize a number of the weapon exercises & drills early but hold the weapon forms until after Biu Jee.

 

[wingerjim]

In my lineage, the pole, and especially the bart cham dao, are introduced very late in the training. The pole form and exercises are begun generally after Biu Tze form, and often after the dummy form is started (a minimum of 6 or so more years in training). The Bart Cham Dao is taught only to those nearing master-level (15+ years in).

What this means is that so few are trained in the weapons that 1. They do not contribute to the empty-handed skills of the vast majority who train in our system, and 2. Any chance at developing practical skill with weapons through regular drilling and sparring with a variety of opponents simply cannot happen. A few at our association headquarters may get that chance, but it simply can't happen at branch schools at all!

Fortunately I also train and teach a branch of Escrima that dovetails very nicely with our VT system and gives me the chance to regularly drill weapons techniques with partners in a way that is not happening with our traditional VT weapons.

Applying our Escrima concepts, especially concept of "transition", I have been able to make some practical sense of the traditional VT/WC weapons. Otherwise, I'd pretty much write-off the VT/WC weapons as only for "prestige" and as supplemental training for strength (pole) and footwork (BCD). --At least the way our group teaches them.

How about the rest of you? Do you start weapons training earlier and practice it in a more functional way?

Yes, we do but only after a student is relatively proficient with all three empty hand forms and on the Muk Yan Jong. I agree with your statement that these greatly contribute not only to the empty hand skills but also help to further develop good form, overall technique and the generation of power. For me the two weapons are training tools as I cannot ever see myself actually using either except in a very unlikely situation where I am confronted while holding a broom or rake or some pole-like tool.

 

[geezer]

For me the two weapons are training tools as I cannot ever see myself actually using either except in a very unlikely situation where I am confronted while holding a broom or rake or some pole-like tool.

It's not just broom handles! Actually, I'm often surrounded with stuff that could be employed for self-defense.

Being able to adapt your skills to improvised weapons could be a life saver in a self-defense situation. Also, improvised weapons of opportunity are more likely to be something you can justify to the legal authorities if you ever had to use them ...since you they are not something you are carrying with intent to cause harm.

Escrima, at least what I study, trains these skills. The way WC/VT weapons are typically approached does not. Perhaps some schools train differently.

 

[Vajramusti]

It's not just broom handles! Actually, I'm often surrounded with stuff that could be employed for self-defense.

Being able to adapt your skills to improvised weapons could be a life saver in a self-defense situation. Also, improvised weapons of opportunity are more likely to be something you can justify to the legal authorities if you ever had to use them ...since you they are not something you are carrying with intent to cause harm.

Escrima, at least what I study, trains these skills. The way WC/VT weapons are typically approached does not. Perhaps some schools train differently.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------Learning how to do the bjd and the kwan well can give one the basic skills for using short and long weapons.I use the sticks fairly well without having any lessons in escrima. Being originally from India and always curious about martial arts gave me a sense of usage of knives, sticks, swords and poles. The Brits severely restricted the use of guns except for licensed hunting, soldiering and top level law enforcement people.

 

[wingerjim]

It's not just broom handles! Actually, I'm often surrounded with stuff that could be employed for self-defense.

Being able to adapt your skills to improvised weapons could be a life saver in a self-defense situation. Also, improvised weapons of opportunity are more likely to be something you can justify to the legal authorities if you ever had to use them ...since you they are not something you are carrying with intent to cause harm.

Escrima, at least what I study, trains these skills. The way WC/VT weapons are typically approached does not. Perhaps some schools train differently.

Thank you geezer, I get that the broom comment is just an example. I once asked a karate instructor why he only taught the staff and his answer made sense, because it is one of the few weapons that mimics many things laying around.

 

[anerlich]

My kwoon teaches the weapons and dummy in seminar formats separate from regular classes. Open to all levels, though if you haven't got basic footwork the knives probably won't make much sense.

I doubt I'm ever going to have double butterfly swords on hand if something kicks off. Even my practice knives would come to the attention of cops and "concerned citizens" if they were seen, and they're not all that easy to conceal where they can be easily accessed. The techniques do adapt fairly well to short sticks, and finding something like one or two of those is certainly a possibility in an attack. A friend once successfully fought a knife attacker off using a garden stake.

Pole adapts well to any stick over about 4 feet long. I can't see myself taking a 13 foot pole on public transport. But finding a useful substitute is a possibility.

It is useful to understand how weapons are used even if you have no plans to carry them. I certainly feel the Hock Hochheim (sp?) knife and stick work I learned has been valuable, though carrying knives for defence purposes is illegal where I live, and I do not do so.

But - if you want to carry a baseball bat, put it in a bag with a glove and ball or say you are on your way to practice. Or carry a chef's toolbox if you feel you need a knife. If you ever plan to use either, have a good lawyer on retainer.

I went to a short seminar with a criminal lawyer who was also a karate black belt who told some stories of guys who got into very sticky legal situations from using knives for defence. One guy was using a tiny knife he used to peel fruit against a guy that was attacking him with a 2 by 4 in a workplace bullying situation. He did not hurt or even touch his attacker at all, but ended up charged with assault with a weapon.

The other was a cook who actually stabbed and killed a guy with a homemade knife his boss insisted he make and carry with him. The guy he stabbed was much bigger than him, drunk and belligerent and stood over and racially harassed him while he was eating lunch in a restaurant, minding his own business.

They were both found innocent, but in both cases they had to endure a LONG and anxiety producing trial process. And the second guy had to live with having killed a human being.

 

[Juany118]

In my lineage, the pole, and especially the bart cham dao, are introduced very late in the training. The pole form and exercises are begun generally after Biu Tze form, and often after the dummy form is started (a minimum of 6 or so more years in training). The Bart Cham Dao is taught only to those nearing master-level (15+ years in).

What this means is that so few are trained in the weapons that 1. They do not contribute to the empty-handed skills of the vast majority who train in our system, and 2. Any chance at developing practical skill with weapons through regular drilling and sparring with a variety of opponents simply cannot happen. A few at our association headquarters may get that chance, but it simply can't happen at branch schools at all!

Fortunately I also train and teach a branch of Escrima that dovetails very nicely with our VT system and gives me the chance to regularly drill weapons techniques with partners in a way that is not happening with our traditional VT weapons.

Applying our Escrima concepts, especially concept of "transition", I have been able to make some practical sense of the traditional VT/WC weapons. Otherwise, I'd pretty much write-off the VT/WC weapons as only for "prestige" and as supplemental training for strength (pole) and footwork (BCD). --At least the way our group teaches them.

How about the rest of you? Do you start weapons training earlier and practice it in a more functional way?

Ours is late as well BUT at the same time we study Kali in parallel so even if my instructor considered "mixing it up" to introduce the weapons earlier he would likely dismiss the idea in the end since we already start learning a weapon heavy art out of the gate.

 

[wingerjim]

It's not just broom handles! Actually, I'm often surrounded with stuff that could be employed for self-defense.

Being able to adapt your skills to improvised weapons could be a life saver in a self-defense situation. Also, improvised weapons of opportunity are more likely to be something you can justify to the legal authorities if you ever had to use them ...since you they are not something you are carrying with intent to cause harm.

Escrima, at least what I study, trains these skills. The way WC/VT weapons are typically approached does not. Perhaps some schools train differently.

So how does Escima and WC relate? It would seem to me that it would be similar to using the WC swords, is that correct?

 

[Eric_H]

Since progress in my WC line is pretty glacially slow (since 2004, still in SNT), I'm not sure I'll ever see our weapons beyond the little bit I know of the short staff.

Fortunately, I was able to learn Wutang Saber and a bit of Iron Fan in some of my extracurricular studies. It's taught me an appreciation for range management as well as the classical chinese combat paradigms of Circle/Square/Linear structure and the more well known four front-four corners way of breaking space down. Knowing those things has helped my WC in certain areas, even though it's not the terminology or paradigm WC uses.

Should I ever learn HFY's weapons, I'd probably teach short staff close to the beginning. Medium weapons are a good start to building a student's weapon tree IMO.

 

[Jsunlx]

Since progress in my WC line is pretty glacially slow (since 2004, still in SNT), I'm not sure I'll ever see our weapons beyond the little bit I know of the short staff.

Fortunately, I was able to learn Wutang Saber and a bit of Iron Fan in some of my extracurricular studies. It's taught me an appreciation for range management as well as the classical chinese combat paradigms of Circle/Square/Linear structure and the more well known four front-four corners way of breaking space down. Knowing those things has helped my WC in certain areas, even though it's not the terminology or paradigm WC uses.

Should I ever learn HFY's weapons, I'd probably teach short staff close to the beginning. Medium weapons are a good start to building a student's weapon tree IMO.

That's a really long time to be in SNT. Have any of your classmates progressed to Chum Kiu or further, and if so, are they middle to elderly aged people at this point?

 

[geezer]

Hey Eric, I too am in the glacially slow club. I may never see the whole system of the lineage I study either, but I'm OK with that. I've met too many people who mistakenly conflate volume of information with quality of information. Wing Chun(VT/WC/WC) in general with it's emphasis on simplicity and efficiency was a reaction against that kind of thinking in the traditional Chinese Martial Arts.

 

[Jsunlx]

SNT is just one piece of the puzzle. If you're building a house, you don't stop at the foundation. The other forms build on it, just as SNT reinforces them. It shouldn't take 60 years just to learn the system and then to start refining it.

 

[Eric_H]

That's a really long time to be in SNT. Have any of your classmates progressed to Chum Kiu or further, and if so, are they middle to elderly aged people at this point?

I wouldn't presuppose to know where all my sihings are at, my teacher has been teaching since 1975, there's been hundreds of students in that time. In fairness, I've found HFY's SNT to be more information dense than my entire training in the Moy Yat style, which I completed except for the swords. It should absolutely take longer to learn, but I did expect to be done with it by now.

Hey Eric, I too am in the glacially slow club. I may never see the whole system of the lineage I study either, but I'm OK with that. I've met too many people who mistakenly conflate volume of information with quality of information. Wing Chun(VT/WC/WC) in general with it's emphasis on simplicity and efficiency was a reaction against that kind of thinking in the traditional Chinese Martial Arts.

Yeah, I'd rather be 100% functional with 20% of it than 20% functional at 100% of it.

 

[Jsunlx]

I wouldn't presuppose to know where all my sihings are at, my teacher has been teaching since 1975, there's been hundreds of students in that time. In fairness, I've found HFY's SNT to be more information dense than my entire training in the Moy Yat style, which I completed except for the swords. It should absolutely take longer to learn, but I did expect to be done with it by now.



Yeah, I'd rather be 100% functional with 20% of it than 20% functional at 100% of it.

I understand what you're saying, but Wing Chun was developed to be learned in a short amount of time. Learned. Not mastered. Life isn't long enough to master Wing Chun. As I said, SNT is one piece of the puzzle. Everything else builds on the foundation. It's important, essential, but it will never be complete.

 

[Jsunlx]

Also, if everyone had the mentality of focusing on 20% until you've mastered it, the rest of the art would become extinct. Mastered in who's mind? How do you gauge mastery?