fighting techniques of the ninja

[Aiki Lee]

I have heard that Koto ryu and Gyokko ryu were practiced by the Togakure ryu ninja. I was wondering if any of you out there knew if there is truth to this or if it were myth or an incorrect assumption.

I've heard from instructors that they were told that Gyokko ryu and Koto ryu were taught alongside each other but never combined together into one art. Why do you suppose this is?

 

[DuskB4Dawn]

interesting post Himura Kenshin. the title of the post is misleading. I thought it was about how ninjutsu taijutsu is different and the style and approach compared to other martial arts. than i would say ninjutsu focus alot on timing and fast attack that disrupts enemy balance and movement.

about Koto ryu and Gyokko ryu. i read they are related. I don't think Togakure ryu practice koto or gyokko ryu. it would be unlikely. but then again Im no expert on ninjutsu history so i cant say I know for sure.

 

[EWBell]

Gyokko Ryu and Koto Ryu should be viewed as peanut butter and jelly, in that they just go together. While they are separate ryu-ha, Koto Ryu actually evolved out of Gyokko Ryu. Takamatsu Sensei taught that Koto Ryu Koppo-jutsu, Gyokushin Ryu Koppo-jutsu, Gikan Ryu Koppo-jutsu, Iga Ryu (which includes Togakure Ryu) and Koga Ryu all descended from Gyokko Ryu. Also, the weapon known as the Kyoketsu Shoge came from Gyokko Ryu originally.

Togakure Ryu in and of itself would probably not be a great hand to hand system, as it seems to focus on escape and diversion, more than straight up fighting.

 

[Aiki Lee]

I apologize if the the thread title was misleading.

I am aware that togakure ryu has less of a focus on unarmed fighting, which is why I am told they also practice gyokko ryu and koto ryu.

 

[Chris Parker]

Okay, ready? Here we go....

Gyokko Ryu is said to have been founded by Hakuunsai Tozawa, also founder/Soke of Hakuun Ryu Ninjutsu, from knowledge brought to Japan by Cho Gyokko/Yo Gyokko from China. One of Hakuunsai's teachers was Hachiryu Nyudo, the inventor/developer of the Kyoketsu Shoge. The given founding date is about 1162.

The tenth Soke of Gyokko Ryu was Sogyokkan Ritsushi, his students included the founders of Gyokushin Ryu Koppo (Ninpo), Gikan Ryu Koppotaijutsu (both found in the Bujinkan), and Izumo Ryu (Hontai Gyokushin Ryu) Koppojutsu (no longer extant). It has been said that Gyokushin Ryu has no formal techniques of combat itself, instead the Ryu uses the physical forms of Gyokko Ryu to instill combative wisdom and skill. It has also been said that Gyokushin Ryu focuses on sacrifice throws (Sutemi Nage), and there are certain combative approaches distinct from Gyokko Ryu associated with this system. My personal take on that is that Gyokushin Ryu Ninjutsu contains no combative forms, instead using Gyokko Ryu for that purpose, however Gyokushin Ryu Koppo does contain, at the least, combative concepts and principles, including the aforementioned sutemi nage and things such as nagenawa (a rope used similar to a lasso). I don't think there are actual "kata", though.

Koto Ryu was founded in 1542 by Sakagami Taro Kunishige, who was the twelth Soke of Gyokko Ryu (he re-organised Gyokko Ryu into Kosshijutsu from Shitojutsu as well). It was based on Gyokko Ryu and the knowledge brought to Japan from China via Korea by Chan Busho (for the record, Chan Busho was said to have once killed a tiger with a strike in Korea, using Koto Ryu methods. This is where the Koto Ryu gets it's name from).

One concept when dealing with the origin of Koto Ryu from Gyokko Ryu is to look at what the differences are. Gyokko Ryu looks at a "shuffling" method of movement (keeping the same foot in front), as evidenced in the Ge Ryaku no Maki (Muto Dori kata). This form of footwork is less mobile, and slightly slower than stepping, but far more stable, making you harder to attack due to being off balance, and is therefore far more common in systems that deal with one-one-one dueling-style methods. Considering that the form of warfare at Gyokko Ryu's time (for the higher ranking samurai) revolved around personal combat, issuing challenges and fighting single persons, it makes perfect sense. Koto Ryu, on the other hand, demonstrates through the Hekito Gata (Muto Dori kata) a "stepping" footwork. This is more consistent with a melee, all-in style of battle, which was what was found during the Sengoku Jidai, when Koto Ryu was founded. So the new information (from Korea via Chan Busho) added to changes in requirements leant themselves to a new martial system. However, that did not mean that the Gyokko Ryu was abandoned.

The Gyokko Ryu and Koto Ryu were taught and transmitted together from that point onwards, including the training of Gyokko Ryu methods against the "attacking" patterns of Koto Ryu (found throughout the Chuden and Okudan Gata). The fact that Koto Ryu contains no kick defences may indicate that such ideas were simply found in the Gyokko Ryu, and added little value to methods. Both systems fill the "holes" in the other.

Togakure Ryu was said to have been founded by Nishina Daisuke/Togakure Daisuke, and is based on his training in Shugendo, his combative training as a vassel of Kiso Yoshinaka's army (he was 16 at this point, by the way), and the teaching of Hakuun Ryu Ninjutsu from Kain Doshi/Kagakure Doshi. In terms of physical methods, the Togakure Ryu is very sparce, dealing with little more than escapes from grabs, weapon attacks, and enemies advancing with weapons. In other words, the small Taijutsu aspect of Togakure Ryu deals with what to do if you're captured (held, grab defences), spotted (advancing enemy guards, armed with swords or spears), or attacked (typically with swords or spears) when out on an espionage-style mission. It has long been said that Togakure Ryu relies on Koto Ryu and Gyokko Ryu for it's Taijutsu, and while it is true that the Taijutsu of Togakure Ryu (specifically) is very similar in movement, it also has it's own "flavour" there. What I feel is meant is that if a Togakure Ryu ninja was involved in a more "combatively active" mission, they would use the Gyokko and Koto Ryu teachings there, rather than have their own seperate form. The actual Togakure Ryu Taijutsu methods seem to me to be a later addition to the Ryu, when the school became more "active", which was said to be the 16th Century, rather than the 12th (founding date of 1185 for the Ryu itself).

So, to give a brief (very brief!) outline....

China's Imperial Court ------Yo Gyokko---------Hakuunsai Tozawa (Gyokko Ryu Ninjutsu) (Hakuun Ryu Ninjutsu)--------Sogyokkan Ritsushi (Gyokko Ryu Shitojutsu) (students founded Gyokushin Ryu, Gikan Ryu, Izumo Ryu)--------Sakagami Taro Kunishige (Gyokko Ryu Kosshijutsu) (Koto Ryu Koppojutsu)------Current generation (Hatsumi, Tanemura)

China's Imperial Court--------Chan Busho (Korea)------Sakagami Taro Kunishige (Gyokko Ryu Kosshijutsu) (Koto Ryu Koppojutsu)----------Current generation (Hatsumi, Tanemura)

Ikai----Hakuun Doshi/Hakuunsai Tozawa (Gyokko Ryu Ninjutsu) (Hakuun Ryu Ninjutsu)-----Kain Doshi-------Togakure Daisuke (Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu)-------Current generation (Hatsumi, Tanemura)

So you can see that these arts are all quite closely connected, and have all been fairly influential on each other. Gyokko and Koto Ryu both passed through Momochi Sandayu at one point, and he has also been linked with Togakure Ryu (not as a head, but as having studied the system). The idea of Togakure Ryu using the physical methods of more "combative" arts, such as Gyokko Ryu and Koto Ryu, with a small amount of specialist methods for their espionage requirements fits with the idea of what ninjutsu is.

 

[DuskB4Dawn]

when i read the title fighting techniques of the ninja. I thought you were talking about the style of fighting of ninjutsu. about what makes ninjutsu distinct and unique.
than i heard gyokko ryu and koto kyu i thought here we go again another one of those threads :/

 

[Sanke]

when i read the title fighting techniques of the ninja. I thought you were talking about the style of fighting of ninjutsu. about what makes ninjutsu distinct and unique.
than i heard gyokko ryu and koto kyu i thought here we go again another one of those threads :/

If that's the case, you may be in the wrong place from what I've gathered, a lot of people here already know what makes Ninjutsu unique and different, and are more interested in the history behind it and it's various schools. But being new here myself, that could just be because i follow a lot of threads that Mr. Parker posts in, and those tend to just go in that direction naturally...

 

[Aiki Lee]

Thanks Chris! I can always seem to count on you for an informed response.

The comment on Gyokushin ryu was interesting too, its relationship to gyokko ryu sounds similar to the one shared between kumogakure and togakure ryu.

 

[Chris Parker]

Yeah, it's pretty similar to the Kumogakure/Togakure link. Kumogakure is also thought to have no actual combative waza itself, although it does have certain approaches (I refer to it as "the art of disappearing"), including the psychological effects of wearing Oni masks in combat, and the use of armoured sleeves (both of which imply to me non-battlefield methods, as it is not the use of a full suit of armour, however there is some protection offered there, the use of specialist weapons designed for scaling walls and trees (Kama Yari, Ippon Sugi Nobori), and so on. The Taijutsu is said to be similar to the Taijutsu of Togakure Ryu, although they are both classified differently (Koppojutsu for Kumogakure Ryu, Kosshijutsu for Togakure Ryu).

 

[DuskB4Dawn]

it is interesting what you said about gyokko ryu and koto ryu footwork
i find gyokko ryu has a more defencive feel. from a standing position and the backwards in 45 degree angle.
and koto ryu more of a attacking feel. and attacking while you are moving forward.
i tend to favour gyokko ryu footwork more. feels more stable and koto tends to change feet more often.
Togakure ryu i dont know. i am not up to that yet. sounds like alot of fun!

my sensei once when explaining gyokko ryu and koto ryu said gyokko ryu is more like what a palace guard would use. and koto ryu for siege warefare. like escaping from a castle and running forward into enemy.
I wonder how you would descibe Togakure ryu?
thanks

 

[Indagator]

Can't speak for other orgs or really outside of my own experiences at all, but I have noticed a certain heavy leaning within Bujinkan instructors who have been involved since a certain period of time, towards the philosophical principles of Togakure Ryu - to the point of extending physical/combative principles from the kata of other ryu into a point where they can be interpreted within the philosophical principles of Togakure.

This is simply my small experience, I would say my .02 but tbh it's prob more like a 100th of a cent LOL.

 

[Chris Parker]

it is interesting what you said about gyokko ryu and koto ryu footwork
i find gyokko ryu has a more defencive feel. from a standing position and the backwards in 45 degree angle.
and koto ryu more of a attacking feel. and attacking while you are moving forward.
i tend to favour gyokko ryu footwork more. feels more stable and koto tends to change feet more often.
Togakure ryu i dont know. i am not up to that yet. sounds like alot of fun!

my sensei once when explaining gyokko ryu and koto ryu said gyokko ryu is more like what a palace guard would use. and koto ryu for siege warefare. like escaping from a castle and running forward into enemy.
I wonder how you would descibe Togakure ryu?
thanks

Okay, there's a few things to cover here... to begin with, I am your Sensei, so the separation between what "your sensei" told you and asking how I would describe Togakure kinda confuses me.... after all, it's not as if you don't know who's on the other end of this keyboard!

In terms of the footwork of the two Ryu-ha in question, both prefer slightly different angling concepts, but I wouldn't necessarily say that Gyokko is that much more "defensive". It prefers coming in from an angle, and utilising a more "circular" approach than Koto's straight line movements, but the idea of "defensive" or "offensive" is more in the mindset of the kata (and Ryu) itself. Even at the very beginning, with Koku and Renyo, you're being taught to "attack" the incoming limbs of an opponent, and the evasive actions are more to be in the right position to come in at the angle Gyokko prefers.

In terms of prefering one or the other, so far you have had a taste of each. It's good that you're starting to become more aware of them, and finding where you're comfortable within the art, but realistically you've had 6 months of Gyokko, and now 3 months of Koto so far... that's all. It's really not enough to get any more than a brief taste. Oh, and Koto is plenty stable, in fact it relies on being completely stable when striking while the opponent is unstable (again, what Koppojutsu is about, attacking the structure of the opponent, such as their stance and stability). Togakure Ryu you'll see from July onwards.

In terms of Gyokko being what a palace guard would use and Koto for siege warfare, that's not quite what I said there.

Gyokko Ryu's history says that the skills were originally developed at the Chinese Imperial Court, where they were developed by a Princess (or Lady in Waiting), or possibly smaller statured Palace guard. This is why it moves the way it does, not relying on strength, but instead moving around to better positions in order to maximise your power, and minimise the opponents ability to react. That's not the same as saying it was for a Palace Guard, though.

Koto Ryu includes stories about it's practitioners operating as small "disruptor" groups, and acting as anti-siege combatants, rather than being involved in siege warfare on the other side.

Togakure Ryu and how I would describe that, well, Togakure Ryu has a very limited Taijutsu aspect, mostly focused around escape if discovered on a mission. There are no striking defences whatsoever, just grabs, advances with weapons, and weapon attacks. Movement tends to be low, stable and resistant all at the same time, and almost all kata follow the same basic concept: Try to keep distance in order to escape, if that doesn't work, then suddenly rush in past the opponents attacks and defences, quickly apply the technique, then distract to create distance to escape. That'll make more sense later this year for you.

 

[Aiki Lee]

I have not seen much from the weapons training in Koto Ryu or Gyokko ryu, how do you see their philosophies reflected in that aspect of training?

 

[Chris Parker]

Gyokko Ryu and Koto Ryu don't have any weapons syllabus anymore (that has been publicly shown, at least), however each have certain weaponry that have been associated with them.

Gyokko Ryu, as mentioned, is associated with a range of flexible weaponry (Kyoketsu Shoge, Kusari Gama), as well as Bo, Sword, and Knife (Tanto). Koto Ryu also has a reputation for Bo, Sword and Knife, with aspects of the swordsmanship said to include a posture known as Mangetsu no Kamae (similar to Hoko no Kamae, but with the sword held in one hand, to either reflect the sun into an enemies eyes, or, if it's raining, to catch the water in the bo-hi and flick it into the enemies face to distract them), the use of a left-hand grip (to seem like you don't have any skill with a sword), and an anti-siege tactic of cutting the enemies achilies tendons as they attempt to climb over a wall.

A number of years ago there was a range of bojutsu kata being taught that were claimed to be Gyokko Ryu, and there were some DVDs that show it, but they are actually a set of Kukishin Ryu that weren't recognised (not too dissimilar to when Asayama Ichiden Ryu was being taught as "Gikan Ryu" as Tanemura's notes had been used, and the kata weren't named, so the assumption was made...).

 

[Aiki Lee]

Thanks Chris, I was unaware that Koto ryu and Gyokko ryu don't really have a weapon syllabus. So far my experience with them is from koto ryu shoden and gyokko's joryaku no maki and the kihon happo. Most of my weapon training at this point comes from kukishin and eishin ryu.

 

[Indagator]

the use of a left-hand grip (to seem like you don't have any skill with a sword), .

Lol I can't help but think of that scene from The Princess Bride when you say that hehehe.

 

[skuggvarg]

So there are no weapons in Gyokko Ryu and Koto Ryu? Only sword in Togakure? Really? Thats really strange dont you think. Even waza to defend against short and long sword but no waza on how to handle said weapons... Hmmm / Skuggvarg

 

[Chris Parker]

So there are no weapons in Gyokko Ryu and Koto Ryu? Only sword in Togakure? Really? Thats really strange dont you think. Even waza to defend against short and long sword but no waza on how to handle said weapons... Hmmm / Skuggvarg

Hmm, you may want to re-read what I wrote there, there was no indication of Togakure only having sword in it's densho; there is also Senban, Shino Dake, Shuko, Metsubishi in the Taijutsu scroll, and Yari and Ken as attacking weapons. When it comes to Koto and Gyokko not having weaponry, I believe you were part of a thread on MAP covering this?

To fill in the details, it was asked whether or not Gyokko might actually have a sword syllabus (as some claim to teach it) and the issue of "well, where did the attacking partner learn to use a sword for the Ge Ryaku muto dori kata then?" came up. This, however, was a rather irrelevant question, as the thought is that Gyokko probably lost whatever weaponry kata it had, leaving only the Taijutsu (Kosshijutsu) left. There is also the distinct possibility that the sword handling was taken care of by learning, or training in other systems (the Hagakure has reference to Daimyo rewarding their samurai for attaining ranking in different martial skills, such as archery, swordsmanship, spearmanship, gunmanship etc, indicating that training in seperate areas may have been common, at least in some domains, and that the skills would cross over - ie the skills of handling a sword from another system would make it's way into the attacking methods of Gyokko training. This is also supported by the traditional way of training, where the attacker is always the more senior person, and therefore would be the more experienced, and the more likely to have picked up such skills).

Next is the possibility that the only swordwork that survived was that of the attacking methods, with little other emphasis being placed on swordsmanship. By a similar token, you don't have to be a TKD blackbelt to train against a roundhouse kick, although having basic understanding of how to throw one is needed (just not real perfection). The next thing to remember is that the attacking methods throughout the Bujinkan are rather uniform, especially for a system made up of so many different methods and arts. Basically, the main attacks used are based primarily on the Kukishin weaponry methods, with only a few looking at the other methods used in other schools (the slight difference in Jodan no Kamae in Koto Ryu, rather than the way the posture is found as Dai Jodan in Kukishinden Ryu, and so on).

Incidentally, the Hontai Yoshin Ryu have done something rather interesting along these lines.... It was starting to be noticed that the skill of the swordsmen in their muto dori gata was not really putting the students against any real pressure, as the understanding of swordsmanship was lacking (due to it not being a real "studied" weapon, as such). As a result, the Ryu integrated the Iai methods of Toyama Ryu, including paired kata, in order to get the swordsmanship up to speed. In the Bujinkan traditions, there is the Kukishinden Ryu Happo Biken for that, so it's not necessary to have another one for Koto, another one for Gyokko, another one for Takagi Yoshin etc. So if the arts have lost their kata (their weapon syllabus, not their entire usage or the entire presence of such weapons in their methods), there is no real need to add them back in, as the Bujinkan really is covered in that way. By the same token, there is no need to have spearmanship taught in Togakure Ryu (although the Kama Yari is one of the secret weapons of the Kumogakure Ryu, and spears are used as attacking weapons in a few Togakure Ryu kata).

 

[Aiki Lee]

Wait, are there techniques for fighting with the shino dake in togakure ryu? Isn't that the breathing tube?

If so, is its use akin to using a hanbo?

 

[Chris Parker]

No, there are no combative forms for the Shinodake, but there are teachings for it (again for clarification, non-combative). It is one of the Sanpo Hiden of Togakure Ryu, though, which also includes the Senban and Shuko.