FIGHT like a man, THINK like a man, ACT like a woman..

Discussion in 'Women of the Martial Arts (Women Martial Artists)' started by Jenna, Aug 3, 2008.

  1. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    It IS impossible to train for every possible way you can be attacked, because just when you think you've covered every possibility -- someone'll disguise a lead pipe with a feather duster, and you haven't practiced against feather dusters.

    But it's not impossible to train against likely attacks and likely methods. Do some research into how attacks tend to happen, the most likely weapons to encounter, and so on. Also, truthfully, their just ain't but so many ways to move the human body around. Especially with a purpose of causing harm to someone else. It's also possible to train in enough possibilities that you'll find a workable response to any attack -- even the feather duster.
     
  2. Jenna

    Jenna Senior Master

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    Hello my friend :) Yes, of course there are only so many ways to move your body and weapons about your body. Can you tell me though how you can be completely confident with regard to your own defence if you have only trained for likelihoods? I am being devil's advocate here of course and but I was hit by a little surprise that I was not ready for, sort of like your "pipe in duster's clothing" analogy, so I am wondering now..

    I will give you another hypothetical and hope it makes a little sense and if not, do not be worried, it is just me, um, exploring, if you follow.. Imagine you were taking an examination; a test. You would maybe not be 100% confident in your abilities to ace the test if you had only covered a fraction of the potential possibilities for questions, right? You might pass that test knowing what kind of questions that would be asked. I believe though that you would get some questions completely wrong, yes? OK so far? So imagine that test was weighted. Most of the questions carried very low marks with just a few questions carrying the highest percentages. There is a chance that you may fail that test is there not? If that makes no sense, do not be worried at all one bit and thank you again for your thoughts :)
    Jenna
     
  3. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    To use your test analogy -- if you know that some questions carry more weight than others, you're going to focus your study on those topics, right? But it's a faulty analogy, because a real attack isn't a test question; the pass/fail line isn't whether or not you got the perfect answer -- but whether or not you survived. You don't have to have a perfect answer.

    Let me use an example to show what I mean. You've probably practiced a defense against a punch to the face, right? Since you practice a form of aikido, it probably involves an evasion and redirect. Well, will that work against a knife thrusting at your face? Yeah -- you may want to make a few modifications to consider the edges, but you can use pretty much the same basic approach.

    Even were it possible to develop a list of perfect defenses against every attack, you wouldn't be able to process through the list and choose the proper defense in the heat of the moment. Have you read of the OODA loop? OODA stands for Observe, Orient, Decide, and Act. It summarizes what's got to happen to respond to an event like an attack. You must OBSERVE the attack, ORIENT to it by recognizing it as both an attack in general and a specific attack, DECIDE between the alternatives you have available, and then ACT on that decision. The more complicated you make the process, the longer the orientation and decision will take. Instead of trying to shape perfect responses, it's often better to do something less than perfect immediately. If self defense is your goal, you need to shape your training towards that goal; this has been discussed at length here in numerous threads, and I'll refer you to them rather than do it again here.
     
  4. tshadowchaser

    tshadowchaser Sr. Grandmaster

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    how true
    Acting immediately is often the one factor that decides if you win /lose, survive/or not. Acting fast and with intent to stop the attack and render the attacker unable to attack again or at least put some good damage upon the attacker is a must.
    Often being able to respond quickly may make the difference between your constantly being on the defensive and your being able to get away from the situation or overwhelming the aggressor.
    Remember getting away is also a defensive tactic and one that needs to be in the back of your mind
     
  5. Jenna

    Jenna Senior Master

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    I had not heard of OODA loops and so thank you very much indeed for this. I particularly like the idea of "short-circuiting the opponent's thinking processes" and which is a very clever idea and one that I had cause also to wonder about for this very same reason and asked a few questions on thread about PREDICTING an opponent..

    Yes I appreciate that the analogy is riddled with flaws and you are correct, of course it is not necessary to have a perfect answer to pass the test, but I just mean that if you come up empty when you have to give your answer to the most difficult questions then you may not simply fail.. this could be the epic fail..

    Your points are very well made and again, I very much appreciate your input and mean that sincerely I will not be duplicitous with anyone I promise.. You are correct, an evade of a straight fist strike bears a great resemblance to the evasion of a knife thrust. Personally I would class these as the questions on that test which are given the lowest weighting. The difficult questions? The ones with the greatest weighting? He is waving a pistol and I am 2.5 metres back. I see this as my fail question. I do not think that the applicable techniques would be drawn from any MA, but rather involve alternatives. "Getting away" as tshadowchaser says above.

    I have wondered as I have imagined this picture, would a great level of confidence really make the difference? Perhaps. Perhaps. The "thinking like a man" that I referred to. I have a confidence. Yet to drive down the intent in someone, say, with a pistol, well, that would take a little extra I think.. And but I will not ask any more I know we will only go off the theme and I will digress badly.. Thank you again my friend, Jenna
     
  6. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    To prepare to defend against a weapon, you need at least a minimal understanding of that weapon. If someone is 2.5 meters away and has you at gunpoint... unless you've got a special in with the great scriptwriter in the sky, it's a tv/movie fantasy that you can defend against them without getting shot. Yes, you're inside the magic 21 foot rule (look it up) -- but they're already set. Odds are very good that they'll shoot before you can reach them. Now, can you control to some extent where you get hit, and when it happens, and stand a decent chance of surviving? Absolutely.
     
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  7. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons A Student of Martial Arts

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    Well speaking from a predatory mindset, it is always easiest to separate the weaker ones from the herd. The watchers are almost always not the weakest of the herd. They have their position as they are more aware or stronger or more alert or what have you.

    So this bad guy who walked in and decided that this was an option would not go after those three. They would be the ones to put up the greatest fight. It would be the one who left late alone or early and was not paying attention. This one would be the one the bad guy would try to take advantage of the situation. She would be the most likely to fall victim.


    Of course, if the Bad Guy has a profile he is looking for, such as left handed women with the first child being male and the younger child being female and she has red hair with one blue and one brown eye, then if you meet his profile you will be targeted.
     
  8. teekin

    teekin 3rd Black Belt

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    Perhaps "Fight like a predator, think like a predator, act like a predator" is the way to go here. Rich may be on to something previously overlooked.:samurai:
    Lori
     
  9. Jenna

    Jenna Senior Master

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    ahh.. yes.. this is what I mean where this person has specifically singled you out as meeting his preferences for whatever reason. And so Rich, what, say, if he had his mind on a lady of the confident kind you described. Would her confidence then even matter? I know I am speaking to hypotheticals again and it is all hearsay and anecdotal and no one really knows etc.. and but what do you think? Someone with a specific intent I wonder how deterred they might be by this confident demeanour? And how do you think that lady might act in order that she might deter him completely? Thank you, and I am sorry again for so many questions.
    Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
    Jenna
     
  10. thardey

    thardey Master Black Belt

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    I could be off, but it seems like we're getting into a barrel of "what if?" monkeys. I'll go ahead and say it now - there's no possible way to prepare for any situation. There's simply not. What if I'm in church and my pastor pulls a gun and decides to shoot me? What if the local mafia/gang suddenly, and without my knowledge decide that I need to be killed? What if I'm riding my motorcycle, and that semi truck driver suddenly decides that it would be convenient to cross that middle line and run me over? Not a lot of specific training that can help me, there.

    That is why so much of martial art training also involves the philosophical side, for some the religious. Ahh, the freedom that comes from the disillusions of safety! The more you learn about violence, the more you see potential threats everywhere, and there comes a point in everybody's training where they realize that their training may never be enough for complete safety.

    Some people realize this, and then switch to some other means of finding complete safety. They jump from system to system, tazers, pepper spray, the newest key-ring defense system, guns, bodyguards, dogs, etc. They amass tons of self-defense knowledge, without ever really understanding the concept of self-defense.

    Other people, when they reach the point of watching their "safety" disappear like their belief in the easter bunny, realize that this need for a sense of safety is nothing more than a feeling left over from childhood, from being protected by your parents (a necessary feeling, for proper growth, but there is a time for warriors to leave it aside.) There comes a point where "the mind of the warrior is on death."

    Have you ever learned to ski, board, skate, or anything that involves falling down as part of the learning process? There's a universal truth - if you focus on not falling down, you will fall down! You have to accept that no matter how good you are, you can still fall down, but, you have to learn to be okay with that. If you focus on not losing a self-defense situation, guess what? You've already programed yourself to be a victim.

    Granted, in self-defense situations, if you lose, you may die. Not to be calloused here, but, so? Martial arts is essentially training to be a warrior. A warrior cannot be afraid to die. They have to be able to use that instinct for self-preservation to become aggressive, and to face death with an attitude. In the animal world, most aggressive defenses (not the "run away" types) involve basically a challenge: If I go down, you're going down with me! Is it worth it?

    Or, put in the words of another western martial arts hero: "Do you feel lucky, punk? Well, do ya?"

    The basic idea of self-defense is not so much to avoid getting hurt - it is to be able to hurt the opponent to the point where a victory is not worth continuing. And to let them know you're ready to dish it out.

    That is to say, a best, a win, at worst, a tie! For predators, a tie is a loss.

    It may not part of the aikido way of thinking, but this is why, even though I have a size advantage, I still practice strikes like eye-gouges/scratching, throat strikes, pulling and twisting of ears. As a predator, would a car be worth going blind for? The ability to speak? When the medical bills outweigh the potential gain, would a predator continue? Remember that they are facing death, too.

    A predator will continue only if the odds are in their favor. I can't force the odds to my favor, but I can at least make them even. And that's enough for me.

    There are the rare types who don't choose a target logically, but even the most whacked-out types won't choose to go empty handed against a semi-truck. That is, everybody will only initiate if they believe they have a chance of winning.
     
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  11. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    The serial predator like that is a different critter entirely from the "ordinary ogre." They've locked into a fantasy (usually sadistic and sexual) involving their type. They'll develop a method to approach and snare their target; recall how Ted Bundy sometimes used a fake cast, for example. Your ordinary ogre's "type" is vulnerable and easy prey; the serial offender's type is specific, made to be vulnerable.

    But serial sexual offenders like that are rare. You're much more likely to encounter the regular offender who sees you as a walking ATM.
     
  12. jlhummel

    jlhummel Yellow Belt

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    Jenna,
    I am always interested in your views on self defence from a womens stand point. I also find your friends opinion of "act like a women" very intreging. I grew up in a very rough and crime ridden part of Lansing Michigan and cofidence is something that does effect how a potential attacker will react and or treat you. My personal experience is that being able to show a willingness to fight back is just as if not more important, to be able to project that there is a point you wont allow another persont to go beyond, that win, lose, or draw you will go down spitting in your attackers face. There are very few people who will attack someone that they know they will have to see there own blood to beat. Being able to project that your inner self cant be beaten no mater what is a very powerfull thing. I think that this is what your friend is telling you. You dont have to be a man or act like a man to have an indomitable will or soul. I think she is saying you can be a women and still be indomitable, still be able to project cofidence and the williness to not give up no matter what. That has nothing to do with gender at all.

    John
     
  13. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons A Student of Martial Arts

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    From what I have heard on TV from Experts on female self defense state that is the person is just after someone then a person needs to resist and they attention will get them to go elsewhere as it is taking to long and too much risk. But for those that fit a profile if they miss you that time, they will be back.

    Jenna if you or anyone else has a stalker they should file a complaint with the local authorities. Document the issues and the problems. In the State I live in there a court order called Personal Protection Order or PPO to limit contact of the person and also their agents from fallowing you or coming within a distance of you.

    Once you have documented the problem, it has been my experience even being the gorilla size type person to show self defense.
     
  14. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    Stalkers are yet another type of offender, at a different point on the spectrum of focus. On one end, you've got the "regular" offenders, who are just predators looking for any prey. They're just taking a vulnerable target; when motive, opportunity, and means combine, they're grabbing what they can -- whether they're muggers or rapists. Somewhere in the middle of the focus spectrum is the serial sexual offender who's developed, as part of his offense pattern, a specific type. (It's possible for non-sexual offenders to develop types or regular victimology, but it's not quite the same thing.) They're fulfilling a need by choosing that particular victim, and once they've identified a target, they're going to shape an opportunity to some degree. It may just be lurking for a blitz attack... but they're focused on that type. A stalker has gone to the Nth degree on focus; they don't care about ANY other target except the one their focused on. It's personalized and locked; they'll be working to create an opportunity to strike at that particular person.

    To defend against the "ordinary ogre", ordinary awareness is sufficient, and ordinary self defense will see you through. If you take reasonable precautions, and prepare for the typical weapons and attacks, you'll have covered the bases. To defend against the serial predator, you need a little more focus, but it's really a matter of recognizing when one is around, and exercising those same sorts of awareness, tweaked just a bit for the specific concerns. But to deal with a stalker is more complex. You've been tagged, and you have to realize that it really is all about YOU. You need to take advantage of things like protective orders, and even shelters. Because until that stalker is either moved onto another target, or incapicated (jailed, or killed), they're going to keep coming. They won't believe that you're not interested... and they're not going to stop without major intervention. You need to practice heightened observations and awareness, good security practices, and more.
     
  15. Jenna

    Jenna Senior Master

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    Yes my friend you are correct of course there is no way to train for every eventuality. But you would admit that some of these are unlikely scenarios for you I think? We would not waste time in training for a zooful of escaped animals because we go with likelihoods and probabilities. If however your neighbour kept a pet lion on a rope in his back yard, maybe you might train a little more for that kind of thing? All I am saying is how easy it is to feel confident with what we *think* are the probabilities. We *think* with our MA that we can handle whatever unpleasant situations we may encounter in *normal*, daily life. If I am ok to take you back to your neighbour that keeps the pet lion? Imagine he has a big enough yard that he keeps it where you cannot see it nor hear it. Fact you do not even *know* he owns this beast.. I guess in that case, you would not have thought of training to protect yourself against this kind of predator. To do so would seem a waste of time. I reckon you would even feel quite confident regarding your own defense. You would probably feel quite happy and safe in your house too I would guess. Perhaps one day this animal is somehow free to wander. Even if you escape a lion attack with your life and all your limbs, maybe you understand that your confidence level at the zoo might be difficult to re-instill? Anyways that is just an illustration.. All I mean is that I think confidence in our defensive abilities that our arts give us, can often endow us with a disproportionate (and sometimes unrealistic) sense of security. Usually it is never disproven.

    I really like your board / skate analogy. I think this is absolutely true. The mind is funny when it comes to being told NOT to do something. The mind cannot focus on NOT falling off a highwire without actually falling off.. That is not always the easiest thing to train out though?

    Well, all I can say is that I am afraid to die. I am not a warrior and I wonder how many martial artists, particularly female martial artists seek to make a warrior of themselves, even in the metaphorical sense? I embarked on my MA journey all those years back, not to conquer the world. Only to conquer myself. I am still trying. I can only suggest that if I was more solitary, with no dad to look after and no friends to support and no Aikido to give me a principle then I guess I would have no problem with that fear of dying because there would be no real point in me being here anyway and no-one would suffer if I were not. My art teaches me not to harm anyone, regardless of their intentions towards me. I understand how out of tempo this is with our instincts. But it is just my personal belief and I am not seeking to proselytise.. When I am attacked, I do not want to destroy the person or kill myself trying. I only want to be left alone. Unfortunately, leaving them relatively unharmed can of course lead to a prolonging. And so it goes. I apologise for another tedious digression my friend :) Thank you again for your time.
    Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
    Jenna
     
  16. tshadowchaser

    tshadowchaser Sr. Grandmaster

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    sometimes the best defense is a phone and watchful neighbors

    That is the way your art is taught today in most schools but that is not the way it started. In the beginning your art had a much more military following and it indeed taught people how to hurt one another. It was only later in life that O'Sensie became much more passive in his teachings
     
  17. Dagney Taggert

    Dagney Taggert Green Belt

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    When all is said and done, you just can't beat a good 'ol Jedi Mind trick. Gets 'em every time. All the self awareness, aggression, and testosterone in the world are no match for blue electricity.

    Seriously though, this has been a great discussion. I think the concept of womanly power, womanly aggression, got lost in history's translation somewhere and became classified as an effort to be like a man. A woman has the capacity to be aggressive and predatory, but biology does not present these attributes right away in the female machine.
     
  18. kwaichang

    kwaichang Purple Belt

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    My take on this topic; don't let your potential attacker THINK you're a martial artist. Then you have the advantage of appearing weaker and can increase your defensive options.
     
  19. From this statement it sounds like butching up just means not showing your pain. Everyone has different pain tollorence levels in general (there are always exceptions to every rule) men don't show pain when they get hurt, some people call it being macho but I think it goes way back to our ancestors and is more of a survival of the fittest thing. Women on the other hand don't show pain from illness ie: when your a mother and your sick as a dog w/ the flu or worst something like cancer you still need to take care of your kids you don't stop being Mom because you don't feel good. My husband I swear could cut off a finger and keep right on working "Don't worry it's fine I'll stick it back on later" on the other hand if he's running a fever he's the worlds biggest baby literally curled up in a ball under the blankets wanting to be taken care of. So in my long rambling on I guess what I'm trying to say is I think what they meant was don't show your pain, but that is sometimes easier said than done. As far as fighting like a man or woman goes do what works for you. You can be confident as a woman without thinking like a man, and last act like yourself after all who else can you act like?
     
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  20. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons A Student of Martial Arts

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    JKS et al,

    My Step Brother had an issue at a work place and had to take court legal action to keep is employment and show her stalking as part of her stalking was to accuse him of stalking. It was costly financially but well worth it in the end for state of mind.

    I have had the issue with some women to a lessor degree. Will not take no on the phone or in person as the final answer. They need to follow up, they need to be in control to how it ended. I have told one I as under Psychological care and that I should not date per his and my understanding of my current state of mind. This allowed for her to have proof it was my fault as I was crazy and it was not her fault. She moved on. In another case the woman knew less about me and could only call or e-mail and not show up at my home or work. A female friend of mine ran into her and she was talking about me, so she pretended to be my girl friend and she got all mad about the stalker talking about me. The calls and e-mails stopped. My friend called me as she had heard some of the messages the female stalked had left me, as I kept them on tapes for records and proof and also played them for others so they would know the tapes existed and could speak to their content, if required.

    So, if a woman has someone specifically after her. An Ex or a want to be current or just someone random, do you think the scare tactic would work? I know the first one would not as the cases are not similar and was much milder in my case then what I present here for male on female.

    Thoughts?

    Thanks
     

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