FIGHT like a man, THINK like a man, ACT like a woman..

Discussion in 'Women of the Martial Arts (Women Martial Artists)' started by Jenna, Aug 3, 2008.

  1. Andy Moynihan

    Andy Moynihan Senior Master

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    I take it the local "insurance company" is useless or has their hands tied?
     
  2. Jenna

    Jenna Senior Master

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    Andy my clever friend :) Yes this is of course an idea (well assuming we have not got our hypotheticals crossed). And yes your insurance company is already aware of potential further damage to your vehicle. In fairness, you do not have a great record with them. Anyway, the onus for protecting your vehicle is not on the insurer. That privilege is yours, yes? Only contact the insurer in the event of a claim.
    J
     
  3. Andy Moynihan

    Andy Moynihan Senior Master

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    Hmm.

    Just spinning my wheels, 'cause I don't figure the point needs driving home, but in the event of a situation requiring another use of emergency brakes, it may be time for a certain crankcase to get totalled, junked and scrapped.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2008
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  4. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    I'm just plain confused... what does all this talk of cars have to do with anything?
     
  5. Jenna

    Jenna Senior Master

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    Hey jks9199 :) gosh you are right. It is confusing. I agree. I can only apologise for the wild and uncalled for digression into allegory. I will close down this thread and have a closeout and you can take the best bits home for free. I hope that is ok. Thank you again my friend.
    Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
    Jenna
     
  6. Dagney Taggert

    Dagney Taggert Green Belt

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    Fight like a man? Butch up? Huh? I think your well-meaning friend is a victim of feminist marketing from the early 70's. The "be more like a man to get ahead" mentality is tired and counterproductive. The ingredients that make up a woman are beyond sufficient to get the job done. Male power is a wonderful, aggressive phenomenon; female power is a wonderful, aggressive phenomenon. The two are executed differently for a reason. Why waste time and energy with "try to be like" tactics when you can already BE a woman without breaking a sweat?
     
  7. Jenna

    Jenna Senior Master

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    Hello there my friend and thank you for your thoughts :) You could well be right about the advice as outdated and but I wonder is there no merit in it at all?

    And within the martial arts I still think we – on some level, even subconscious – maybe attempt to keep up with the guys in the dojo by acting more like they do and taking on their more perhaps “instinctive” fighting abilities. I know I am making terrible generalisations and but this is just my own experience and I know it is not reflective of all MA so forgive me if it sounds that way.. And I have noticed, and I am sure you have too, that some women in MA are, well, butch I think is an appropriate word, though I apologise it is not a kind one.. I have trained with a lady like this and I would say if I was allowed to be honest, that her attitude was awful - more than a little affected or contrived if you follow. Funny, she got on well with the other guys and but I could not relate to her on any level as a woman, even after training.. and I think I can be one of the guys too at work and stuff, my MA is different though. I practise my art as a woman because I am a woman and no one ever seemed to have any problem with that. And but my question is really could I be a *better* fighter – and I use the word fighter in preference to martial artist – if I fought with the fighting mindset of a guy? Does that make sense? The idea of butching up made me wonder perhaps I just appear too weak and do not possess that fighting mindset and I do not like that thought at all one bit. At the same time I do not want to butch up anything.. I like to be feminine and but if the advice is to be feminine yes, but be butch / fight like a guy *when needed*, then I would consider that advice seriously and consider acting on it, though I would not really be sure how to implement that.. What do you think?? Thank you again :) J
     
  8. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    That's not at all what I was suggesting! I just got completely lost in the car story... I don't get what point you were trying to make with it.
     
  9. Jenna

    Jenna Senior Master

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    No point my friend, no point at all, just hypothetical nonsense. I am sorry for the digression. I am prone to lift off and be blown like dandelion seeds on the wind. The fault is mine. I hope you are well and thank you sincerely for your contribution, it is appreciated :) Jenna
     
  10. tshadowchaser

    tshadowchaser Sr. Grandmaster

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    We all digress at times and I know we all take side trips in threads. No problem girl.

    Each of us has our own way of fighting, one that seems natural to us for what ever reason. We can change this fighting method by hard work and practice but it may not be necessary in the big picture of how we perform.
    If we study one art must we adapt a different art unless we find the first one lacking?
    A man or woman fight a certain way depending on natural tendencies and training. To change the way one fights there must be a reason be that more aggressiveness or more flow, or just to appreciate the way another fights
     
  11. Jenna

    Jenna Senior Master

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    ahh my friend what I would not do right now for your fast thoughts and strong arms..

    Can you say how we determine the necessity of changing our fighting style? If we are beat using that style to defend ourselves, is that a sufficient determinant? Are you undefeated? Have you ever been beat? If so, can you say if it made you rethink your fighting style?

    What reason my friend, would you consider sufficient to change your own fighting style? How would you know that your art was lacking? Would you have an idea of how to decide that? Sorry for so many questions.. and but sometimes I find that good wisdom is a weapon in itself..

    Thank you again,
    Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
    Jenna
     
  12. tshadowchaser

    tshadowchaser Sr. Grandmaster

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    now that is a different subject




    This is a personal choice and one that is different for every one. Some change because they want to learn how to use their feet or hands more, some to learn more throws, some to learn more ground work. Some because they just feel that there is something missing in their training
     
  13. tshadowchaser

    tshadowchaser Sr. Grandmaster

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    NO> it may simply mean that more training and confidence is needed



    In tournament I have won and lost. Luckily I have won more than lost. I learn from both experiences. I did change from TKD to what a different style to learn how to use my hands and to become more proficient in other areas of the arts.



    I change my tournament style depending on what my opponent is doing? I know enough at my age do to this

    Would it be my art or my understanding of the art?? If I had no idea how to defend against a punch, tackle, throw, etc. and my art did not teach such things I might look for an art that could teach me to defend against them.
     
  14. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons A Student of Martial Arts

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    A story on Victims and not look like one or look like prey.

    I female friend of mine who was a Minister at a church asked me to give a quick self defense talking / seminar / demonstration to the womens club of the church. I agreed and she set it up. Of course she was busy with something that only she could handle when I showed up and I went to the room she told me it would be at. The women were mostly there, but it was a few minutes early so I walked into the room to check it out.

    Here is what I saw:
    1) One women about 60+ looked at me and kept her eyes on me in a quiet like manner. Not in a challenge, but when I looked in her direction she was watching me indirectly.

    2) One women about 50+ came up to me after I walked in and looked around and then walked back out. She asked if she could help. She took charge. She wanted to know if I belonged and or if I belonged somewhere else.

    3) One women showed up right before I was introduced stood against the wall of the room and scanned and then smiled and then kept her eyes on me.

    4) Every other women in the room kept talking. They ignored me. They felt safe in their conversation that no one would ever dare to come into a church and harm them. And those that did see me dropped thier eyes in submission and dropped theri shoulders and went meek. They were prey, they had submitted to a dominant person in the room.

    The woman from number one was in the military as a nurse and she had seen active combat and kept an eye on me to see and access my threat level.

    The woman from number two was military trained as well no combat action but she had volunteered overseas and had seen her own stories in life.

    The third woman was a nurse about 30 to 35 and she worked nights and left late by herself and paid attention to make sure she got to her car safely. I used her in my demo as she was not afraid to actually move with me and or hit me back per my instructions. The rest all just thought violence was way beneath them and that they had never a need for such a protection. I wish they never do, but their lack or caring puts them into falling apart the first time they are confronted. Once that pattern is in place it is hard to break.

    So the comments about Fight like a man means to access your opponents. To weigh the threat level of everyone. To think like a man, is to walk in and be confident, not shy not submissive. Act like a warrior means be capable of accessing the threat and also taking care of yourself which might beviolence but also could be going for backup.

    Of course there are males who could be told the same thing. I believe it was general comment not an absolute.
     
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  15. kidswarrior

    kidswarrior Senior Master

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    I have stayed out of this discussion because I just didn't feel qualified to offer insight to women, especially of a different generation. I don't always see the same things as those my adult daughter's age, as she has sometimes been quick to point out. ;) But since the conversation has shown staying power, and since no flame wars seem imminent :D, I'll have a try.

    First, of course, we have to define the terms. Here's how I take them:

    Fight like a man: Testosterone-driven, aggressive (at least once it's on), counting on size, overwhelming strength, and probably reverting to fists even if training has been otherwise (in other words, forgetting everything in the heat of battle). This is not a very flattering picture, but it's what I see from lower-level MA students when I turn them loose against each other--they immediately revert to a 'street' mentality, and forget everything we've learned. :mst:

    I'd prefer: Fight like you've trained. Use leverage instead of strength; be calm instead of aggressive; use technique, including contouring (hard weapons, as fist, against soft targets, padded weapons, as palm heel, against hard targets) instead of a barrage of firepower.

    Think like a man: What, using your lower brain instead of rational processes? I don't know how a man thinks in a threatening situation as opposed to a woman, unless we just give in to the stereotype of women as victims, men as protectors of hearth and home? But have seen too many exceptions to accept this.

    I'd prefer: Think like you've been trained. Be aware, stay in the moment, attuned to your surroundings, and listen when your intuitive sense starts sending you bad vibes. Like the wit said, Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they're not after you. Also, confidence (definitely not male/female related to me--at all). An old sifu used to tell us all the time, You have to go into every fight believing you're going to win. And he produced women fighters who inflicted pain I still remember. :)

    Act like a woman: I guess this is meant as, maintain your femininity when you're not trying to be like a man? :p Really, not sure how this logic works.

    I'd prefer: Be true to yourself. If you're a woman, you don't have to act. Just be comfortable in your own skin. This may require giving yourself permission to be yourself. I've found many of us have to reach a point in life where we do exactly that. Certainly not all women fit the stereotype we have crammed down our throats by the media 24/7. In fact, probably very few do. And it seems to me it would take a lot of time and effort to look like that billboard or TV spot all the time, and also remember to act a certain way to fit that model (pun alert ;)). So, simply: don't act, just be.

    Anyway, this is what I would tell my own daughter. But then, I'm not the world's greatest dad, either, so could be all wet. :uhyeah:
     
  16. Dagney Taggert

    Dagney Taggert Green Belt

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    Why does the ability to assess your opponent mean that you are "being like a man"? Why is confidence a man's realm? This is what I mean about women's power. Doing these things is not "being like man", it is simply being a woman.

    Some women have not been taught, or raised, to realize and execute their own power, which is formidable.

    Years ago I worked in an office with abut 15 other women. One day, a rather large man walked in and started rummaging through a lady's purse. When she returned to her cubicle and realized what was happening, several other women gathered around and shooed the man away. There was a flurry of worry that day over "our safety". One of the ladies said, "this is so scary, we are only women". I remember thinking to myself, Geez, "only women"???? I mean, this was one guy walking around in an office. I was so shocked this group of women did not comprehend their own abilities. The odds were 15 to 1. The power was sitting right there, within all of them, they had not learned how to harness, exude, and execute that power. And harnessing that power would not require anything beyond a slight shift in perspective, a discovery.

    Dagney
     
  17. kidswarrior

    kidswarrior Senior Master

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    Maybe a picture of some of what I was trying to say... :idunno:
     
  18. Dagney Taggert

    Dagney Taggert Green Belt

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    Exactly! But she is BEING a woman![​IMG] The video is a supreme example of male and female power. I think we agree, but I get frustrated when the execution of power by a woman is automatically referred to as an effort to be like a man.

    Dagney:asian:
     
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  19. kidswarrior

    kidswarrior Senior Master

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    Couldn't agree more! :bangahead: :D
     
  20. Jenna

    Jenna Senior Master

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    If I could ask another question I hope that would be ok? Maybe specifically concerning your own defence, would you agree it is not possible to train against every possibility? No matter how long we train we cannot ever get to train every eventuality, yes? It is like you said regarding your fighting *luckily* you won more than lost. I think luck, or lack of it, is a big factor. So all these things being said, I wonder if you can tell me how did or do you maintain a sense of confidence in your own defensive abilities if you have not met every situation or every potential opponent. I wonder is it a statistical thing that we might be confident of our defensive abilities in *the majority of * situations or against most average opponents? What do you think? I hope these questions are not too offputting. I apologise if they are. I appreciate your time. Jenna

    Rich my friend :) thank you for sharing this. It is very interesting to me to see that perspective. Can I ask another question? I wonder if it would not be too strange.. can you imagine if a guy *were* in that situation with an unpleasant intent. Imagine he has a fairly specific intent whatever it is. He is not a casual thief say, maybe someone who would use a knife maybe, you get the idea.. Can you suggest to me what he might think of any one of these three ladies by their demeanour? I know I am speaking hypothetically and but I hope you follow? I mean do you think this guy would back off by the presentation of a confident demeanour alone? Before he takes any criminal action, is there anything you think would deter him. Make him turn on his heels? A condifent manner is not enough I do not think for a confident and prepared criminal. Would you agree? Thank you my friend :) You know I will listen to your thoughts.. Jenna

    As always, that is another very considered post :) and thank you for it.. I like your advice and I like your alternative take on each and which = Fight like you’ve been trained, Think like you’ve been trained, Be true to yourself.. I like that much better and that has maybe made me smile :) You have a wisdom that reminds me of so many people I respect. And to a daughter, there is no one on earth that can match a good dad :) Thank you again, Jenna

    I do not disagree with you my friend :) I hope you would not mind me making comment on a few things that strike me when I read your post. Personally I do not consider myself feminist. I think the point you made earlier is correct, being feminist, for me at least has too many connotations for misandry and which I am not down with at all.. I train with guys I have always trained with guys and I have – as you probably do yourself – a great respect for my male training partners.. From what you say and maybe from your username (Ayn Rand??) I guess you perhaps espouse a certain viewpoint on strong women and which is always a pleasure for me to see.. And but I hope you appreciate that it is not always easy to adopt this super-confident manner, particularly if you have tried and been beaten, even through no fault of your own. I hope you can maybe understand that? Sometimes training is not enough. Sometimes bravado is not enough.

    I think one of the defining differences between the instinctive fighting of men and women is physiological. Men port a great deal more testosterone than women. There are many studies that show an animal's testosterone is directly correlated to its social dominance, or its rank and the aggressive behaviour it exhibits. I have also read of one where female rats supplemented with testosterone adopted aggressive sexual behaviour towards other females. OK, so point being that in a contest of dominance and aggressiveness, women are at a certain natural disadvantage. And this is my point, that we must, if we want to defeat a male opponent (and I am talking particularly in an SD situation) we must have a way, some way, any way to match what the guy already has cascading inside him. Personally I have proven once to myself that 15yr of training is not necessarily enough nor is a confident disposition and my own personal worry is that I am about to face the same again. So my question really is, what does it mean in that situation to say “women have not been taught, or raised to realise and execute their own power, which is formidable” ? In order for her to defeat a man, is it not more expeditious to adopt his ways or to try to match his aggression? And how can this be done when we do not have the same natural predilection for aggression? I hope that does not sound all aggressive or anything I have no argument with you or anyone my friend :) I am just a little desperate. I hope you are well. And if you have made it through Atlas Shrugged, I can only admire you for your stamina and endurance :)
    Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
    Jenna
     

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