Favoritism with online forum discussions

[beau_safken]

It has been a tough weekend and a lot of change has happened on MartialTalk. We saw the departure of The Martialist and Phil Elmore along with it. This departure I believe is a major lose for our forum and breaks the balance of this place that is so openly discussed but not really in practice.

What is a "Friendly Discussion Forum" if various opposing opinions are not allowed to take place? The views of Phil were on the martial arts spectrum are as valid as any other person here on MartialTalk. I find it insane that this place has forced out the pragmatic tactics that Phil talked about. Traditional Karate used Sai, Nunchaku, staffs, kama and other converted farm tool as weapons and those weapons have been used for thousands of years. Silat emphasized the use of knives, cheating in fights, destruction techniques, and completely destroying your enemy. Kung fu uses machetes, swords, three sectional staffs and the kwan do. For god sakes, Iaito and Kendo are all about the use of weapons. What separates those weapons from say...A glock 19, surefire flashlight, broken bottle, fist packs, pepper spray, or other modern weapons? Pragmatic fighting solutions have been employed at all levels of the martial arts...for the time those arts were developed. Karate uses those traditional weapons because that is what they had to work with. The Martialist talks all about the use of our modern weapons in the same way those old arts used their modern weapons at the time, to destroy and kill your enemy and prevent harm to yourself and those you love.

So you guys tell me... Why is a form of modern martial arts being chastised out of existence on this forum because of its content? Want to know my answer? I'll tell you...

I think it’s because of the challenge on your values personally and not in regards to the principles of the art. Many of the people here on this forum are "traditionalist" and have formed the clan mentality with their art. Anything against your martial art is on the same level as death of your martial art. That is not a problem, but it doesn't allow you to be fluid and change. You all may be black belts, masters, gurus or senior instructors, old, young, new, old it all doesn't matter. The use of antagonistic methods and name calling as I have seen in against people of differing ideas really doesn't help the case. Debate people you don't agree with talk it over and understand your frustration. To put a person out with a "hater" defense is blinding yourself to your enemy’s reality. Even in something like sparring...you have to understand and love your enemy to learn how to exploit their weakness. You must understand their mentality, come to learn how they learned...then you can attack with full knowledge of their ability and tactics.

I ask you all to think just a little...How do you normally deal with opposing thoughts? Why is it any different in real life compared to here....?

 

[Kreth]

So you guys tell me... Why is a form of modern martial arts being chastised out of existence on this forum because of its content?

First of all, Phil requested that his account and forum be closed. He was not "removed" from the forum.

I ask you all to think just a little...How do you normally deal with opposing thoughts? Why is it any different in real life compared to here....?

Interesting you would make this comment, since one facet of the recent controversy over The Martialist forum is that Phil did not deal well with opposing viewpoints. On several occasions he deleted such posts. He was also disrespectful to the MT staff.

 

[Carol]

So you guys tell me... Why is a form of modern martial arts being chastised out of existence on this forum because of its content?

There was content?

Unless I really missed something...which is possible....I didn't see Mr. Elmore get much in to techniques...each request was turned in to a sales pitch for his books. I don't have an issue with him pitching his books at all but pitching books as an answer to a question doesn't really make for content IMO.

Personally I don't see why these topics can't be discussed now. Mr. Elmore does not have an exclusive syndication on types of weaponry. They are open for discussion at any time. Perhaps they can be discussed with someone that has techniques and ideas to share. :idunno:

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Sorry Beau:

But Phil did not fight fairly when he debated. He made personal attacks and disrespected opposing views.

Also, outside of MartialTalk, he is generally viewed as a wannabe faker with no real martial arts or combat expertise or experience. Check out the threads on Phil Elmore on Bullshido.

Martial Arts internet forums have a tremendous power for disseminating information. The free-speech nature of forums should enable every civil person to post. Misinformation can be countered with fact and/or compelling argument.

The credibility of each internet martial arts forum is dependent on the knowledge level of the forum participants, the forum moderators, and the articles and hosted sub-forums.

When opinionated know-nothings are given an elevated status to pose as experts, a forum's credibility is ruined and the forum's ability to educate and inform is compromised.

P.S. I consider myself an opinionated know-nothing not so different from infamous Phil. And if Martial Talk ever lets me have my own forum you should run for your life.

 

[MartialIntent]

I ask you all to think just a little...How do you normally deal with opposing thoughts? Why is it any different in real life compared to here....?

I ride roughshod over opposing thoughts. I belittle those who oppose me and use verbose language to make myself and my ego inflated so big that no one can touch me. I use a condescending manner in a deliberate attempt to make my idealogical opponents doubt worth in their martial arts, their ability to work these arts and in their whole raison-d'etre and furthermore I claim that doubting my superiority is a failure or lack in their intelligence to recognize those who are quite simply *better* than themselves. This is how I deal with opposing thoughts, but it's ok, I'll let you lead your trivial life and leave you alone if you just kow-tow to me, recognize my will as divine and call me "your Eminence" [though I'm Phil to my secret inner circle].

Respects!

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

I ride roughshod over opposing thoughts. I belittle those who oppose me and use verbose language to make myself and my ego inflated so big that no one can touch me. I use a condescending manner in a deliberate attempt to make my idealogical opponents doubt worth in their martial arts, their ability to work these arts and in their whole raison-d'etre and furthermore I claim that doubting my superiority is a failure or lack in their intelligence to recognize those who are quite simply *better* than themselves. This is how I deal with opposing thoughts, but it's ok, I'll let you lead your trivial life and leave you alone if you just kow-tow to me, recognize my will as divine and call me "your Eminence" [though I'm Phil to my secret inner circle].

Respects!

Yessir!

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

So you guys tell me... Why is a form of modern martial arts being chastised out of existence on this forum because of its content? Want to know my answer? I'll tell you...

Beau, if you're going to tell us first, what could we possibly say? It's precisely this type of predetermination that makes a dialogue impotent. Direction is different than discussion.

 

[Xue Sheng]

old

Who you callin’ old

Sorry Beau:

But Phil did not fight fairly when he debated. He made personal attacks and disrespected opposing views.

This is exactly the point. He did not fight fairly nor answer direct questions, He was very quick to label someone a Troll or a Stalker if you opposed and or insisted on an answer to a question. He was always right because he said he was.

But he did keep things interesting and his point of view was not always wrong nor was it always right. I have to admit I sometimes looked forward to what outrageous thing Phil had to say next.

I had a run in or two with Phil and he will be missed. But it was posted that Phil requested the change.

 

[Swordlady]

There is absolutely, postively, nothing wrong with presenting an opposing viewpoint. However, there is something VERY wrong if one is presenting those views in an antagonistic fashion. MartialTalk is supposed to be a "friendly discussion forum". In case you haven't noticed, antagonizing others and condescending behavior doesn't go very far here.

 

[beau_safken]

This is exactly the point. He did not fight fairly nor answer direct questions, He was very quick to label someone a Troll or a Stalker if you opposed and or insisted on an answer to a question. He was always right because he said he was.

I had a run in or two with Phil and he will be missed. But it was posted that Phil requested the change.

Granted Phil probably has a infatuation with trolls and likes under the bridge action, but it seems to me that a lot of the times he would use the Troll defense were justified. I'm not going to defend his techiniques or tactics...I don't know him personally.

The point I am driving at is regardless of how he presented his point, it was still a opposing point to a VAST majority of the people on this forum. This forum is full of martial "Artists" not "martial" artists...if you get my point. I'm a silat guy, and I have done the Tae Kwon Do thing as well. The principles I learned in TKD were good...but compared to the raw pragmatic solutions presented to me in Silat...its really tough to discount anyone with real world ideas on martial arts.

Name me the last time you witnessed a Jackie Chan style bar fight? How about a lion dance attack like from the Wong Fei Hung series? What about just a martial artist on martial artist fight outside a dojo but still fighting as if they were sparring? People cheat...They used modern weapons ala Guns, chemical weapons and the like. I always liked Phil's adaptability to change. Granted he was a little rough on the edges with delivery and should have been wearing a sandwich board with "Buy my book!!" on it. It doesn't negate the fact that this will be a lose to this forum. Pragmatic martial arts like Krav Maga, Silat and Kali still remain, but it was nice having another piller of realistic martial arts support around.

Look at the message not the messenger.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

All good stories need conflict. If kept within limits I have no problems with people duking it out. If you dont like him put him on the ignore list.

 

[Flatlander]

Look at the message not the messenger.

This really is the crux of the matter, Beau. Here, we need to look at the messenger. It is not the message, but how it is delivered.

However, I do understand your frustration here. It is our objective to facilitate all types of discussions, and the best case scenario is that we have all views equally represented. Part of the problem though, is that we are all judged not only by our message but as well upon the delivery. The long and the short of it is that we all build our own reputation here.

The point I am driving at is regardless of how he presented his point, it was still a opposing point to a VAST majority of the people on this forum. This forum is full of martial "Artists" not "martial" artists...if you get my point. I'm a silat guy, and I have done the Tae Kwon Do thing as well. The principles I learned in TKD were good...but compared to the raw pragmatic solutions presented to me in Silat...its really tough to discount anyone with real world ideas on martial arts.

And this point can be made without coming across as offensive. I'm sure of it. Sadly, though, not all are able to make this argument in an eloquent, friendly, and reasonable manner.

This community is just like any other - people will come and go. The ones that stay will be the ones that enjoy the atmosphere and operate within our terms of service.

Listen, I don't agree with everyone else here either. However, I don't always feel compelled to respond to someone with whom I disagree. When I do, I'm certain to retain as much reasonability as I can. After all, how can I expect anyone to look at things from my perspective if I'm unwilling to extend them the reciprocal courtesy?

 

[Marginal]

I think it’s because of the challenge on your values personally and not in regards to the principles of the art. Many of the people here on this forum are "traditionalist" and have formed the clan mentality with their art. Anything against your martial art is on the same level as death of your martial art. That is not a problem, but it doesn't allow you to be fluid and change.

Nah. It's all about force delivery. (For example: dropping a book, or turning a screw.) Anything less isn't MA. It gets kinda hard to swallow "I'm just stating facts, and using pure Vulcan logic" after invalid statements like the force delivery one.

 

[Andrew Green]

Opposing view points are welcome, is there a bias? Always, and anywhere. People are people. But, they are still welcome, if disagreed with.

What usually gets people in trouble is not their view, but their method of expressing it. I disagree with a lot of the people here on a lot of things, I still respect them and what they do, I'm not going to try and claim that what they do is garbage and not real martial arts, it is, it's just not what I do.

 

[Kenpodoc]

I'll miss Phil. He didn't fight fair and he always seemed very closed minded but he also was a forceful proponent of his own point of view. I generally learn more from people with whom I disagree.

Jeff

 

[Blotan Hunka]

When does the fact that nobody is "forced" to read someones posts enter into the equation? For all Phil's faults doesnt it take two to tango? Unlike in the real world we can choose not to listen to someone here.

 

[beau_safken]

Because that would take away from the drama. Some people need drama in their lives. Someone must be bad so they can be good. Someone must be wrong so you can be right. The ignore feature? Don't try and use a logical conclusion to a issue please....

Change is always the best idea, and people that don't agree is proof that the community is healthy. If everyone has a idea that Phil was just an *******, childish arguementative person with no rank, or just mean...it still doesn't eliminate the ideas he had. The idea of use of weapons as force multipliers, having a mindset that doesn't make you a victim, or use of verbal ques to get your opponents off guard...are those bad ideas? I just think some people need to set aside some parts of their own agenda to allow a couple new ideas to brew. But if traditionalist thought and views are what the people here are all about...then I guess that is all there is to say. All one their own.

 

[Andrew Green]

Those sound like traditional ideas

 

[Blotan Hunka]

In theory isnt everybody party to an online fight a "mutual combatant". You have to enter the contest on your own free will. Its not like a real fight where you are forced to respond. There are a few people I have put on my ignore list because I just know that I will say nasty stuff to them and it just isnt worth it.

 

[Carol]

If everyone has a idea that Phil was just an *******, childish arguementative person with no rank, or just mean...it still doesn't eliminate the ideas he had. The idea of use of weapons as force multipliers, having a mindset that doesn't make you a victim, or use of verbal ques to get your opponents off guard...are those bad ideas?

These ideas are not exclusive to Mr. Elmore.

What is preventing anyone from starting up a discussion on these very topics?