FAQ on Why TKD is being smashed.

[Bagatha]

Originally posted by KennethKu





Military combat uses other militarized MA , not just TKD. For example, in Thailand military, they train in military MT. In Korea armed forces, you have militarized TKD, militarized Hapkido and others militarized Korean MA.

Martial Artist does not limit the term "military" MA to just MA taught to the military. He uses it in referrence to civilian COMBAT MA as well.

Try reading my post again.

 

[KennethKu]

: Originally posted by Bagatha
OK well in that sense, TKD is a very generic term that can describe just about every MA out there. So "military TKD" is nothing but normal military combat??

I saw an article about Choi kwang do or whatever in TKD times. He teaches a modified system for the "physically impared".

quote: Originally posted by KennethKu
Military combat uses other militarized MA , not just TKD. For example, in Thailand military, they train in military MT. In Korea armed forces, you have militarized TKD, militarized Hapkido and others militarized Korean MA.

Martial Artist does not limit the term "military" MA to just MA taught to the military. He uses it in referrence to civilian COMBAT MA as well.

Originally posted by Bagatha

Try reading my post again.

My apology for not making my post clearer, Bagatha. :asian: I absolutely did not mean to rebutt your post in any way.

It should have been posted as :

Military combat also uses other militaried MA which reflect their respective national MA flavor, in addition to the generic military TKD.

I remember reading about Gen Choi travelling all over South East Asia, Eastern Europe and to Russia, to teach the military personnel TKD. Of course, he standardized TKD training for the South Korean Army and later introduced TKD to the North as well.

Thererfore, Bagatha, you are ABSOLUTELY correct that military TKD is in a sense pretty much generic normal military combat, as it is widely incorporated.

AS re: Martial Artist's use of the term "Military MA", I was just sharing a point which he has corrected me in the past. I was at first confused that with MA taught in the military only. He corrected me that it basically refers to all MA with emphasis on combat effectiveness.

Again, I apologize sincerely for failing to post in a clearer manner. :asian:

 

[KennethKu]

Also, as re:ChoiKwangDo, you are correct. He stated that he was injured while practicing ITF (he was Gen Choi's assistant) and had to quit to recuperate and in the process came up with a "safer" CKD. (as posted on his website) He also talked about how it was designed specifically for self defence (hence the "Military" aspect of it) and probably due to business concern, CKD is also marketed to the family and kids etc for health and other common benefits.

 

[fissure]

Yes. and there are different styles of TKD. Why are there different styles? because the name itself....which is what I was getting at is a very generic fluffball name that can apply to several different types of MA, and as years progress, more and more styles emerge calling themselves "TKD" or "The way of striking with the hands and feet". <- my very loose translation

Years ago most TKD schools would give the name of the kwan that their lineage connected them to (Chang Moo Kwan for example).Over the last 20 yrs or so this has gone by the wayside, and now everything is called TKD.
Imagine if every striking art from Japan was simply called Karate in the U.S., with no particular stlye to differentiate between them!This is basically where TKD is at this point.

 

[MartialArtist]

A better name for military TKD would be combat TKD. Military TKD doesn't mean boot camp, weapons training, how to use your bayonnet on a M-16/M4, etc. Although military TKD train just as hard as many military personnel if not harder. They also include a lot more mental training which does take up at least an hour of their day.

 

[Bagatha]

Still sounds like poser TKD to me. I personally would never join a club that was not part of a larger federation. For several reasons. The big ones that come to mind is 1. You have no idea if the "master" is reeeaally a master, of if it was some self-proclaimation from some 2nd degree or even a yellow belt(yes I can think of a case). 2. You are limited in your training to the skill that is at the 1 club and maybe a few open tournys with other clubs that arent part of federations either. Im sure there are some legitimate cases of someone quiting a federation for political or some other reason and then just going independant. But looking at some of those independants who come back later on.....something was lost for them, they suck pretty bad. Its not their fault again, they simply did not have the perks that being in a larger international group can give you. Such as seminars and tournys. Times change and so do techniques if your off in your own bubble you have no idea whats going on around you. Furthermore, just because you are in a larger federation does not mean you cannot train combatively, it is true that most instructors choose to focus more on the sporting aspect, but several are into the hardcore street aspect aswell. Its up to the club not the federation. But to get real good at anything you need to hear several opinions, and train on a larger scale.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Bagatha

Still sounds like poser TKD to me. I personally would never join a club that was not part of a larger federation. For several reasons. The big ones that come to mind is 1. You have no idea if the "master" is reeeaally a master, of if it was some self-proclaimation from some 2nd degree or even a yellow belt(yes I can think of a case). 2. You are limited in your training to the skill that is at the 1 club and maybe a few open tournys with other clubs that arent part of federations either. Im sure there are some legitimate cases of someone quiting a federation for political or some other reason and then just going independant. But looking at some of those independants who come back later on.....something was lost for them, they suck pretty bad. Its not their fault again, they simply did not have the perks that being in a larger international group can give you. Such as seminars and tournys. Times change and so do techniques if your off in your own bubble you have no idea whats going on around you. Furthermore, just because you are in a larger federation does not mean you cannot train combatively, it is true that most instructors choose to focus more on the sporting aspect, but several are into the hardcore street aspect aswell. Its up to the club not the federation. But to get real good at anything you need to hear several opinions, and train on a larger scale.

Military TKD schools are not usually public either. A lot of them are private instructors that train a select few. Keep that in mind. And yeah, you can tell who a master is by their rank if you're in Korea as it does take lots of time, experience, and skill to reach a rank that high, no McDojang nonesense. And, a master isn't considered a grandmaster until his 8th degree. Now, even without rank, you can tell if he's a good instructor or not within the first 10 minutes.

 

[Bagatha]

Originally posted by MartialArtist


Military TKD schools are not usually public either. A lot of them are private instructors that train a select few. Keep that in mind. And yeah, you can tell who a master is by their rank if you're in Korea as it does take lots of time, experience, and skill to reach a rank that high, no McDojang nonesense. And, a master isn't considered a grandmaster until his 8th degree. Now, even without rank, you can tell if he's a good instructor or not within the first 10 minutes.

Grandmaster at 8th degree huh? So when does one obtain the title of "master"? Also, how do you know their rank is legitimate if there was no certificate issued from a federation? No test?. Right now I have in my mind a kung-fu club who's instructor used to train under mine. He obtained a green stripe and proceeded to open up his own school (independant of course) with I beleive it was a 5th degree rank which he gave himself. Now to someone who was not familiar with kung-fu, you would walk in and see that everyone was having fun in class, and he has explinations for everything under the sun. So he must be a good instructor right?

 

[KennethKu]

Bagatha makes a very good point. One thing about the ITF is , you have an international governing body to check and verify rank and qualification, in addition to a standardized TKD curriculum and testing process. Even then, there is still controversy about the rank and qualification of certain members ( eg Jeffy lol ) from time to time. But at least you have a system to check and verify and file protest or dispute. Hence the level of integrity is much higher.

When you have someone claiming to be teaching Heilung KungFu (whatever) and calling himself GM whatever, there is no way to tell the truth from the charlatan. You can challenge him to a fight. That does not verify anything neither.

(May be in places like South Korea, in the close knitted MA community, if you are a fake, you get the crap beaten out of you in no time. I dunno. It would be very hard to pass as a fake , in Okinawa.)

In terms of the benefits of a federation, the current ITF under Master Choi, does not mind nor care if its members cross train at any school or MA. So basically you have the benefits of being a member of an international federation, as well as the freedom to cross train at specialized school, Combat MA or McDojo , to your heart's content.

 

[Langdow]

Alrighty I'm late into this thread, and new to this group, so this could be long
The "BashTKD" article in my opinion was put together fairly well, and I am having some difficulty trying to decide if this is a TKD practioner stating some misconceptions, or a non practioner pointing out weaknesses. I've emailed him just because I'm curious. All in all I can say is that this isn't the first time I've heard all these arguements before. I would like to rebut these misconceptions if I may from my standpoint (WTF style TKD training)

First thing first, the techniques. As stated in the article

"... TKD focuses far too much on kicks with very little emphasis on punching, particularly as influenced by Competition style TKD..."

This has been a common complaint that I've heard from other MA practioners. This I find is invalid. It is true that there is a defnite emphasis on kicks, especially in schools that train for competitions, and I am guilty of sometimes overtraining this way myself, however, one could look at the forms in TKD and notice a definate lacking of kicks, especially in the lower poomse. Example: The kicho set of forms, or basic set for beginners does not include any kicks at all, but has emphasis on blocking/counter punching techniques. These forms generally aren't used however because they are quite old and kukkiwon no longer (if ever) uses these as testing requirements in their syllabus.
The Palgwae poomse (which are also no longer needed by kukkiwon) continue the emphasis on block/counter punching, but they also add kicks. The only two kicks used however are side kicks, and front kicks. No flashy jumping spinning 360 degree hook kicks in these patterns. There is also an emphasis on two handed combonation techniques. Swallow form, high knifehand block with a high knifehand strike. As well as clutch and pull combinations.
The Taguek poomse, are the most recently developed forms for the WTF. The emphasis is very similar to the palgwae forms, however the stances or higher and the round house kick is added to one of these forms, as well as double jumping front kick in another. All these kicks are generally middle section.
The Yudanja poomse, begin to take more advantage of kicks, but they have gone back to lower stances than the Tageuk series. The Bum sogi stance is also used much more frequently. Techniques however are still generally based hand techniques, and Keumgang has no kicks in it whatsoever. Cheonkwon actually looks very kung fu-ish if you've ever seen it, very pretty pattern.

The next point of misconceptions is strategy. The author of BashTKD has also added a stategy from Brazilian Ju Jitsu, which is sound

"...BJJ's Strategy says: "All, or most, fights are comprised of only two combatants, and end up with both combatants 'wresting' on the ground rather than standing..."

This is a sound statement, IF their are only two combatants. In modern day self defense however, most altercations never involve two people. Their is usually one, and then another group. In this case mobility is going to keep you from harm, so going to the ground is not normally desirable. Course during hosinsool, use whatever works. I like this one "How do you get out of a headlock? Tell your buddy to kick the guy grabbing you"
This is common of how altercations go in today's society, unfortunately

Next point is on training, or more specifically sparring as the author clearing discusses. The misconception is that a TKD practioner will go for the high kicks, or kicks in general during sparring. This is very true in the WTF (I can't attest for ITF), mainly because our sparring is competition based, and their are rules. It isn't a fight, it is a game. The high kicks to the head are to get the most points (two points for a head kick plus one if there is a standing 8 count) You can see why it's tempting to go for those high kicks. The author states however

"Many believe TKD's kicking (as taught and practiced) isn't even appropriate for MOST situations"

This is completely true, and I have no rebuttal for it other than if someone attacking me is willing to give me the time to kick them in the head, I'll take it, but this goes back to hosinsool, and I know of few good WTF schools that teach hosinsool with hi section flashy kicks. Usually the the lower legs or hip is the target.

The final section has to deal with philosophy. Once again I will take a quote from the author.

"We will skip Philosophy since it is difficult to identify any particular philosophy associated specifically with TKD other then "Be a better person"

This is false, completely. However it is a misconception. The Taeguek poomse are based on the Chinese philosophy pertaining to the trigrams, and the I Ching.
The Palgwae forms are based on the opposites of the Taegeuks, which is the dealings of man.
The Yundanja poomse deal with various korean and eastern philosophies, including earth, water, sky, and oneness to name a few.
Here's a link that is actually quite good in describing the Taegeuk and the I Ching
http://www.tcnj.edu/~tkd/articles/iching.htm

Now just quickly to close (thx for hanging on so long) The McDojangs that are always spoken of, will always be there. Not just in TKD but every other style, especially in North America since there is no governing bodies to stimulate and govern legit styles, arts, schools, instructors, etc . . . Anyone could go to a store buy a black belt, call them selves Grandmaster of chicken fu and open a school to make some money.
The advantage of belonging to international organizations such as the ITF or WTF, is that people can check on the school owners/instructors/Black belts credentials by getting ahold of the said governing bodies. This helps eleminate the Grandmaster of chicken fu people. The added advantage is also that being a member allows you to train at other members schools, with permission from the instructors. If I go on a vacation to the UK I can take my dobak, find a WTF school, ask if it's possible to train there while I'm there, and give them my Kukkiwon certification, and more often than not the answer will be yes, and I will know the material, but I will be able to learn the specific nuances.
On the topic of "military" or "combat" TKD, no offense intended to MartialArtist. I view these as buzz words mainly because TKD was developed for the military. It's all how intense the instructor wishes to teach.

Thx for listening, if I hear back from the Author of the BashTKD article, I'll let ya'll know.

:yinyang:

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Bagatha



Grandmaster at 8th degree huh? So when does one obtain the title of "master"? Also, how do you know their rank is legitimate if there was no certificate issued from a federation? No test?. Right now I have in my mind a kung-fu club who's instructor used to train under mine. He obtained a green stripe and proceeded to open up his own school (independant of course) with I beleive it was a 5th degree rank which he gave himself. Now to someone who was not familiar with kung-fu, you would walk in and see that everyone was having fun in class, and he has explinations for everything under the sun. So he must be a good instructor right?

3rd degree-7th degree, you are known as an instructor. You can instruct people, but you technically aren't given the title as "instructor" until then. 8th is grand master.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Langdow

Alrighty I'm late into this thread, and new to this group, so this could be long
The "BashTKD" article in my opinion was put together fairly well, and I am having some difficulty trying to decide if this is a TKD practioner stating some misconceptions, or a non practioner pointing out weaknesses. I've emailed him just because I'm curious. All in all I can say is that this isn't the first time I've heard all these arguements before. I would like to rebut these misconceptions if I may from my standpoint (WTF style TKD training)

First thing first, the techniques. As stated in the article

"... TKD focuses far too much on kicks with very little emphasis on punching, particularly as influenced by Competition style TKD..."

This has been a common complaint that I've heard from other MA practioners. This I find is invalid. It is true that there is a defnite emphasis on kicks, especially in schools that train for competitions, and I am guilty of sometimes overtraining this way myself, however, one could look at the forms in TKD and notice a definate lacking of kicks, especially in the lower poomse. Example: The kicho set of forms, or basic set for beginners does not include any kicks at all, but has emphasis on blocking/counter punching techniques. These forms generally aren't used however because they are quite old and kukkiwon no longer (if ever) uses these as testing requirements in their syllabus.
The Palgwae poomse (which are also no longer needed by kukkiwon) continue the emphasis on block/counter punching, but they also add kicks. The only two kicks used however are side kicks, and front kicks. No flashy jumping spinning 360 degree hook kicks in these patterns. There is also an emphasis on two handed combonation techniques. Swallow form, high knifehand block with a high knifehand strike. As well as clutch and pull combinations.
The Taguek poomse, are the most recently developed forms for the WTF. The emphasis is very similar to the palgwae forms, however the stances or higher and the round house kick is added to one of these forms, as well as double jumping front kick in another. All these kicks are generally middle section.
The Yudanja poomse, begin to take more advantage of kicks, but they have gone back to lower stances than the Tageuk series. The Bum sogi stance is also used much more frequently. Techniques however are still generally based hand techniques, and Keumgang has no kicks in it whatsoever. Cheonkwon actually looks very kung fu-ish if you've ever seen it, very pretty pattern.

The next point of misconceptions is strategy. The author of BashTKD has also added a stategy from Brazilian Ju Jitsu, which is sound

"...BJJ's Strategy says: "All, or most, fights are comprised of only two combatants, and end up with both combatants 'wresting' on the ground rather than standing..."

This is a sound statement, IF their are only two combatants. In modern day self defense however, most altercations never involve two people. Their is usually one, and then another group. In this case mobility is going to keep you from harm, so going to the ground is not normally desirable. Course during hosinsool, use whatever works. I like this one "How do you get out of a headlock? Tell your buddy to kick the guy grabbing you"
This is common of how altercations go in today's society, unfortunately

Next point is on training, or more specifically sparring as the author clearing discusses. The misconception is that a TKD practioner will go for the high kicks, or kicks in general during sparring. This is very true in the WTF (I can't attest for ITF), mainly because our sparring is competition based, and their are rules. It isn't a fight, it is a game. The high kicks to the head are to get the most points (two points for a head kick plus one if there is a standing 8 count) You can see why it's tempting to go for those high kicks. The author states however

"Many believe TKD's kicking (as taught and practiced) isn't even appropriate for MOST situations"

This is completely true, and I have no rebuttal for it other than if someone attacking me is willing to give me the time to kick them in the head, I'll take it, but this goes back to hosinsool, and I know of few good WTF schools that teach hosinsool with hi section flashy kicks. Usually the the lower legs or hip is the target.

The final section has to deal with philosophy. Once again I will take a quote from the author.

"We will skip Philosophy since it is difficult to identify any particular philosophy associated specifically with TKD other then "Be a better person"

This is false, completely. However it is a misconception. The Taeguek poomse are based on the Chinese philosophy pertaining to the trigrams, and the I Ching.
The Palgwae forms are based on the opposites of the Taegeuks, which is the dealings of man.
The Yundanja poomse deal with various korean and eastern philosophies, including earth, water, sky, and oneness to name a few.
Here's a link that is actually quite good in describing the Taegeuk and the I Ching
http://www.tcnj.edu/~tkd/articles/iching.htm

Now just quickly to close (thx for hanging on so long) The McDojangs that are always spoken of, will always be there. Not just in TKD but every other style, especially in North America since there is no governing bodies to stimulate and govern legit styles, arts, schools, instructors, etc . . . Anyone could go to a store buy a black belt, call them selves Grandmaster of chicken fu and open a school to make some money.
The advantage of belonging to international organizations such as the ITF or WTF, is that people can check on the school owners/instructors/Black belts credentials by getting ahold of the said governing bodies. This helps eleminate the Grandmaster of chicken fu people. The added advantage is also that being a member allows you to train at other members schools, with permission from the instructors. If I go on a vacation to the UK I can take my dobak, find a WTF school, ask if it's possible to train there while I'm there, and give them my Kukkiwon certification, and more often than not the answer will be yes, and I will know the material, but I will be able to learn the specific nuances.
On the topic of "military" or "combat" TKD, no offense intended to MartialArtist. I view these as buzz words mainly because TKD was developed for the military. It's all how intense the instructor wishes to teach.

Thx for listening, if I hear back from the Author of the BashTKD article, I'll let ya'll know.

:yinyang:

No, they aren't necessarily buzz words. It is the real deal and the reason why those words were added was to distance themselves to sport. It's never focused on the sport aspect except maybe breaking. It also does not focus on forms as much as the WTF or ITF.

 

[Bagatha]

Originally posted by MartialArtist


3rd degree-7th degree, you are known as an instructor. You can instruct people, but you technically aren't given the title as "instructor" until then. 8th is grand master.

Okaaay, so these are the "rules" but according to whom? As it is not a part of a governing body....Let me guess... some guy never made it to 9th but wanted to be called GM anyway, so he made his own club where 8th dan is the highest but he could still have lower ranks teaching for him, said it was standard and everyone believes him right? Whatever buddy, as long as your happy that is the most important thing but dont delude yourself too much. There is no such thing as "military" or "combat" TKD anymore than there is "military karate" or chung fu or whatever. You start putting down federations and you are only closing yourself off from the real deal because everyone else has no proof to back up their rank. The McDojo's out there are the ones operating without supervision and Im sorry, you just got suckered.

 

[Angus]

Why are you so eager to call his art a McDojang (modified for Korean art) just because it isn't part of a large federation? What validation does a piece of paper REALLY give you? For all you know, they could steal and copy the piece of paper and put their own name on it, and you'd never know.

I can tell who is a good instructor and who is a good martial artist by simply seeing them and taking a class. I don't need paper, lineage, or federation BS to tell me that.

No disrespect meant to ITF or WTF, I'm just saying that just because a school isn't part of a similiar group has NO direct correlation with the abilities of the instructor or the validity of the art.

There are McDojangs that are part of federations and ones that aren't. The worst McDojangs I've seen have been federations. It means nothing.

Maybe you ought to see it and experience it before you're so quick to classify it as McDojangs? Just a thought.

 

[Bagatha]

Well I dont exactly take note of every single MA school every time I travel and critique their skills. But I can tell you that for sure 99% of the Crap schools in this province are non-affiliations. There will be some who slip through the cracks for sure but for the most part, everyone is on a fairly tight leash. You cant simply copy a certificate, as that is not the only proof of affiliation and most federations wont blindly accept a certificate of a degree by the instructors word. You cant even order uniforms for your students in the ITF without being properly registered as an instructor. You need special permission. If someone has a rank as master and does not have an instructor himself......then how did he achieve that rank??? How does a white belt know what a good martial artist is? They dont. People need these things for proof of experience and EDUCATION. <-This is the DIRECT link between abilities/knowledge of certified instructors and those who are not. In larger organizations the instructors have instructors and many of the higher instructors learn from each other. As opposed to some old fart who stopped his training 15 years ago or more and "promises" he is a real true master and god of all knowledge when really he is playing a long game of telephone (trying to recycle old info to the best of his memory). But hey, if you think the education provided by independants is more legitamate all the power to you.

 

[Langdow]

No, they aren't necessarily buzz words. It is the real deal and the reason why those words were added was to distance themselves to sport. It's never focused on the sport aspect except maybe breaking. It also does not focus on forms as much as the WTF or ITF.

Okay so if I practice the martial art, Taekwondo belonging to the WTF, I am not practiceing the real deal?
I think you have been pulled into a misconception that the BashTKD page is speaking about. There is Taekwondo the martial art, and there is Taekwondo the martial sport. You tell me what the difference is. I personally practice the martial art however I do compete. There is a huge difference between the art and the sport. The art deals with poomse, hosinsool, philosophy, and general all around self improvement. The sport deals with . . . the sport, nothing more nothing less. When you speak about the real deal and "combat/military" I take it you are learning how to fight. I guess there is a difference because I am learning how not to fight. I've been in many altercations because of my job and I've only been grabbed once. I can either get myself out of the situation or talk the person out of the bad choice they are going to make. The person who did grab me, was in a wrist lock real quick and me telling them how foolish that was, the altercation was over there and never needed to be escilated. If I am not practiceing the real deal, I guess I deserve a half point penalty for an invalid grab technique. (sorry couldn't resist being a little sarcastic )
Practiceing poomse now is also a way to learn/excercise. Granted there are places that don't teach them, I just find them to be a good learning tool, and they can be modified to be made into a great workout too.
I don't mean to bash you or anything MartialArtist, I say go with what works for you, however I think there is a realization that you may need to see that yours is not the "real deal" TKD you claim it tob be. Like I said earlier TKD was developed for the military during the Japanese occupation of Korea. Gen Choi brought the Kwans together to form TKD. Both North and South Korea used TKD during the Korean war. It is still being taught to many militaries not just the Koreas. It is all how you train and the mindset you have when you train. Combat/Military are still buzz words.
Just a quick note about ITF/WTF certifications. ITF and WTF black belts have certification numbers. These numbers can be verified through the governing organizations to find the validity of the said BB. This makes it near impossible to copy a WTF/ITF certification because the public can always check the references. If you look at any WTF or ITF BB practicioner and they won't give you there certification number, they aren't legit and should be reported to whichever organization they are posing as. Then they get a cease and desist, or some other nasty type of lawyer driven thing that nobody likes.

 

[Angus]

But like Bagatha said, a white belt wouldn't know it's a copy.

I'm just saying I could care less who they are certified by. A good instructor is a good instructor. It's a bad sign if they have no information on their lineage, but I don't care if their lineage isn't part of a big group or federation.

 

[Langdow]

Agreed
Good instructor is a good instructor, no matter what affliations.
It is however a benifit to be a member of an affliation so there can be sharing of information, and to help cut down on the strip mall dojangs, that turn out poor students who think they're Jean Claude Van Damme.
There are benifits either way, but you are right that a good instructor is a good instructor is a good instructor

 

[Damian Mavis]

Ya that goes both ways, labelling everyone from a certain federation as crap TKD is just as bad as labelling non affiliated schools as crap TKD... each one needs to be individually judged. You can't throw blanket terms out to cover an entire group.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[Angus]

Exactly my point, only you were much more succinct.