Facts, Fiction, Lies and actual accounts

Discussion in 'Tae-Kwon-Do' started by terryl965, Apr 30, 2012.

  1. Daniel Sullivan

    Daniel Sullivan Grandmaster

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    Just to bring this discussion back on topic, do you have a response to this? I figure that this is on topic.

    For those who want to take jabs at one another, take it to PM.
     
  2. Gorilla

    Gorilla Master of Arts

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    In my post #4 I stated what I have been told. Although very simplistic. The research that I have done has shown this to be on target. Thoughts?
     
  3. Daniel Sullivan

    Daniel Sullivan Grandmaster

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    Quoted below for convenience.

     
  4. Daniel Sullivan

    Daniel Sullivan Grandmaster

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    Only two Ro Byung Jick (SMK) and Chun Sang Sup (YMK/JDK) of the original five had Shotokan black belts to my knowledge.

    Hwang Kee (MDK) claimed to have learned shotokan it from a book, which precludes him holding any actual rank, and to have learned takkyeon (I think) through watching demonstrations. Again, this precludes him from holding any title.

    Lee Won Kyuk (CDK) studied Taekkyeon, Kung fu, and Okinawan karate; no clue as to what rank, if any, he attained.

    Yoon Byung In (CMK) had a Chuan fa background and worked out at a karate cluib in Japan; no grade to my knowledge, and he called his art kwon beop, which from what I understand, was CMA based, not karate based.

    My research is hardly scholarly and consists of a lot of internet searching and correspondence with people on BBS like MT. Take it for what its worth.
     
  5. sopraisso

    sopraisso Blue Belt

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    Again I show up late, but I always can learn from what has been said. :)

    My first serious contact with martial arts was with karate (shotokan). Then I moved to taekwondo by force of circumstances. I was shocked with the similarity between both arts. Today I love both and, while I accept taekwondo as my adopted style (it was hard in the beginning), I still plan to go back to karate, to learn more from where it largely came from, as I believe. It's nice to see people here have knowledge of both and are able to conciliate them, at least generally.

    I believe it's important to notice discussions like this are meant to clarify -- not to denigrate any of the martial arts. As I started to know better the links between karate and taekwondo, I felt more peaceful about what I was practicing then. I believe many problems being faced today by one are happening to the other, too, and such issues are not related with the nature of those arts, but with the way they are sometimes teached and/or practiced.

    This is a general lesson of great value. Sometimes our experience, and many times the strong impressions left by our experience, make us have a particular and mistaken view of the general picture, and it's not always easy to perceive that the outside can be very different of what we've seen.
     
  6. dancingalone

    dancingalone Grandmaster

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    HWANG Kee was awarded a green belt by LEE Won Kuk in what I presume was CDK karate. I am sure his abilities well exceeded that rank however.
    GM Yoon was one of the two Koreans acknowledged by TOYAMA Kanken, founder of the Shudokan, as shihan in his school. Whatever dan rank that corresponds to (if at all) at the time, it's still a master level rank in karate.
     
  7. dancingalone

    dancingalone Grandmaster

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    Can't edit my post above, but there is also anecdotal history that General Choi had a dan in Shotokan (I've seen accounts that state nidan). No documentation that I know of has survived to verify this account though, but then similar circumstances exist for some of the other senior TKD people.
     
  8. SahBumNimRush

    SahBumNimRush Master of Arts

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  9. dancingalone

    dancingalone Grandmaster

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    I know GM Kim also trained at the Shudokan. I thought the second Korean shihan was YON Kwai Byung though. I can never remember this gentleman's name, so excuse me for any misspelling here.
     
  10. SahBumNimRush

    SahBumNimRush Master of Arts

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    Thanks for that, you are absolutely correct, YON Kwai Byung was also a BB holder at the Shudokan. I do not remember right off hand what ranks the three gentlemen earned, but I'm fairly certain all three of them were black belts through the Shudokan.
     
  11. SahBumNimRush

    SahBumNimRush Master of Arts

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    Not that Wikipedia is an incredibly reliable source, but it supports your statement of both YOON Byung In and YON Kwai Byeong being listed as Shihan through the Shudokan, and KIM Ki Whang being listed as a 3rd Dan (although I've seen other sources list his rank as 4th Dan).
     
  12. Daniel Sullivan

    Daniel Sullivan Grandmaster

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    While shihan doesn't represent a specific rank, I think there is a minimum rank of like fourth to sixth dan, depending on the art. I know that shihan in Korean is sabeom, which is generally at least fourth dan.

    I had thought that he claimed to have a nidan. I could be mistaken, but either way, I have heard this as well.
     
  13. andyjeffries

    andyjeffries Master of Arts

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    Likewise, but:

    http://www.arenakarate.co.uk/about/shuri_te

    Lee started his martial arts training during his college years at the Central University law school in Japan. There he studied, what is now known as Shoto-kan Karate-do, under Gichin Funakoshi. "As a young man, I visited martial arts centers including the birthplace of Karate in Okinawa, Kung Fu centers in Henan and Shanghai China, and other places. I studied Karate with Sensei Hunagoshi, founder of Goju-ryu Karate and a Japanese national hero."(Lee)

    A while after achieving his black belt under Grandmaster Funakoshi, Lee returned to his home of Korea so that he could show his people the beauty of the martial arts. "I practiced Tang Soo Do and came to realize this type of skill was very important to have. I became aware that our Korean national history and legacy of martial arts were being kept from us. I felt very bad about this." (Lee)
     
  14. dancingalone

    dancingalone Grandmaster

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    That's a rather bizarre quotation by the way. (I know you didn't write it, Andy.) Who is Hunagoshi? The founder of Okinawan Goju-ryu karate was MIYAGI Chojun. YAMAGUICHI Gogen later popularized Goju-ryu in Japan.
     
  15. andyjeffries

    andyjeffries Master of Arts

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    The only think I can think of is that he meant Funakoshi? g/k is fairly similar in Korean and there is no "F" in Korean, so maybe he pronounced it Hunagoshi as that was as close as he could get with his Korean accent. The quote is attributed to him, so maybe it came from a recorded interview and was just written as said.

    I don't know of the Goju-ryu/Shotokan confusion though.

    As you say, it's not my quote but those are my guesses...
     
  16. Kong Soo Do

    Kong Soo Do IKSDA Director

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    I've seen him listed as either 4th Dan or 7th Dan depending on the source. He seemed to be very well respected in both Japan and Korea.
     
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  17. Daniel Sullivan

    Daniel Sullivan Grandmaster

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    Kongsoodo,

    Before it gets buried again, I asked some questions to you and gave you some responses regarding your statements on Kukkiwon pumse. I'm not sure if you've seen them; the original was on page two and I reposted it on page three. I don't know if you've just missed them, but I am interested in your response.

    Thank you,
     
  18. Gorilla

    Gorilla Master of Arts

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  19. chrispillertkd

    chrispillertkd Senior Master

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    Lee Won Kuk studied at the Shotokan and received a black belt (3rd dan I have heard, but I've never gotten a concrete answer).

    Pax,

    Chris
     
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  20. Gorilla

    Gorilla Master of Arts

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    I would like to restate what we have said here. Please add I did not get everything!

    Major influence of TKD is Karate. Shotokan is probably the major one but other styles came into play.
    That founders of the major kwans trained in Karate rising to different ranks. We believe based on Internet research that at least 2 achieved Dan rank under Funakoshi.

    That TKD was established post WW2. I think that it is fair to say that it has also been influenced by Korean martial arts culture which predates the Japanese occupation. To what extent is debatable but to say that it had no influence would be unfair.

    Can we all agree that this is some what accurate?123
     

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