Facts, Fiction, Lies and actual accounts

Discussion in 'Tae-Kwon-Do' started by terryl965, Apr 30, 2012.

  1. chrispillertkd

    chrispillertkd Senior Master

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    More like trying to assimilate them to become more "Japanese," most likely. If you want people to think a certain way a very effect means of doing so is to control their education. This can be counteracted by influence from a child's parents, of course, but not necessarily easily.

    No, I didn't I just didn't think it applied to the topic of why the Kwan founders studied karate in Japan since that's a matter of public record.

    Pax,

    Chris
     
  2. Kong Soo Do

    Kong Soo Do IKSDA Director

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    No, I'm standing by what I stated.

    My point from my original post would be along the lines of 'was' (Karate/other) and not a 2000 yr old indigenous KMA. What it is today is a distinct art. From my personal, and professional perspective (read SD), it was far more effective then than it is now. Modern TKD, from a SD perspective is watered down and generally ineffective. I repeat, from a SD perspective. Sport on the other hand is a different animal and is not within the scope of my statement.
    I will strongly disagree, with respect Daniel, about your comment on forms. Again, in my opinion (personal and professional) they are reworked karate forms. I do NOT feel those that put them together, generally speaking, knew exactly the information they could/should contain or the true value of the form. Or, at least felt that that knowledge wasn't needed for the agenda they wished to pursue.

    How many 'modern' practitioners (of any art that uses forms) sees those forms as a waste of time? A class-filler? Something that really doesn't apply to actual training? I'd say the majority. And that is a shame, because proper knowledge of forms is the depth of the art itself. Does TKD (and Karate) have joint locks, throws, balance displacement, cavity pressing, misplacing the bone/tendon etc? It does with a proper knowledge of the forms in my opinion. And it is something that has been lost for the most part in most schools. True, if you only want sport it isn't needed or useful, but it is very relevant to those in the arts for SD.

    Yes, Funakoshi had more at this point. And we agree that rank and experience (time in training) aren't necessarily the same thing.
    I disagree, with respect. I feel that forms training is a prime example of that lack of experience/deeper knowledge of the art. Had the majority possessed this insight, TKD 'might' look different today. Be that good or bad is to the opinion of the beholder.
     
  3. Daniel Sullivan

    Daniel Sullivan Grandmaster

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    No offense, Gorilla, but that pretty much applies to anyone making a definitive statement on a BBS.

    Thus spake Daniel Sullivan
     
  4. Daniel Sullivan

    Daniel Sullivan Grandmaster

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    The problem here is that you are making a distinction between parts of the same art. If you're comparing the arts, you cannot simply lop off a major portion of the art in order to make your point.

    This is entirely your opinion. I am familiar enough with Shotokan (though it has been a very long time since I have practiced it) to say that you are incorrect. You might have been able to make that case for Palgwe pumse, but those were only practiced for a brief period of time. Perhaps you can make that case for Chang Hon tul; I'm not saying that you can, but I am not familiar enough with them to say one way or the other.

    Couldn't tell you; that has not been my experience at the specific schools where I have trained.

    On that we can agree! :)

    Probably; I'm not familiar with enough of the hundreds of karate ryu to speak to 'karate' as a whole.

    Again, I couldn't speak to that, as my personal experience has been otherwise.

    In my opinion, you're either learning the art or you're not. Some people only want sport, usually because they are younger and still in a competitive mindset. People who stay with the art longer generally want a more balanced curriculum.

    Honestly, I don't see sport as the issue. I see the focus on belts as being the main issue; people learning a form just to get a belt, then forgetting about it until they have to test for black belt, then reviewing it enough to pass a belt test, get their black belt, and then quit. Unfortunately, instructors are complicit in this (and that I have seen first hand) in order to keep their school running.

    How familiar are you with Taegeuk pumse?
     
  5. dancingalone

    dancingalone Grandmaster

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    Regarding the idea that the KKW poomsae are or aren't reworked karate kata...What would make a poomsae 'reworked'?

    I think it is true enough on a physical technique level. Having gone through the poomsae up through Taebaek, there's certainly not any stances, blocks, strikes that aren't also present within karate kata. You could perform the KKW forms with a Japanese karate mindset (take your pick which style) and you can definitely see the roots of Shuri te are still present in TKD, even within the Kukkiwon flavor.

    If someone wants to make the argument that the intent within KKW poomsae departs in a large way from karate kata, I think that is potentially a much stronger case to build. That or the philosophical meaning which has been written about a good deal on MT in recent months.

    As to TKD schools lacking depth or rigor in their forms training... I've never come across a TKD dojang in person that studies forms in the same way that some karate dojo do with layers of meaning to the same movement or sequences of movements such that a simple blocking motion is transmuted into a hold or lock or takedown. And that's fine. Given the connection TKD has to Japanese karate where such things are largely nonexistent as well I would expect as much.

    This doesn't mean that TKD stylists don't know the overt meaning of each move in their forms. I think that most yudanja indeed do know it. It'd be hard to perform a poomsae well without this knowledge I think and we know there are many excellent poomsae practitioners in the TKD world.

    For myself, I think there is an excellent opportunity to retrofit some karate bunkai into the KKW poomsae, given the broad similarity of discrete techniques within them compared to the Itosu-line karate kata. Whether that is something the designers of these forms would want I cannot say, but the path is open for those that don't mind a closer relationship with their karate roots.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2012
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  6. punisher73

    punisher73 Senior Master

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    What's interesting is that when the book was translated and newer editions came out, material such as that quote was added. I know a well known instructor who studied in Korea and achieved Dan ranking while there in the 60's. He has a first edition copy of that book in Korean and the quote about the patterns is that they were Japanese in nature and the applications were not known.
     
  7. Daniel Sullivan

    Daniel Sullivan Grandmaster

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    Just to be clear, when I said that the Taegeuk pumse are not reworked karate kata, I meant that they didn't take existing kata and alter them in ways to make them just different enough; the pumse are original forms, not simply permutations of karate kata.

    Regarding strikes, blocks, and stances, I would expect commonality.
     
  8. dancingalone

    dancingalone Grandmaster

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    Indeed. It's fair to say the KKW poomsae are more original than the Palgwe or the Chang Hon patterns. The Chang Hon geup hyung are especially plagiaristic when you compare them side-by-side with the Heian kata.

    Still, karate-ka, of the former or current variety, running through the KKW poomsae will conjure feelings of deja vu from time to time. I think it is also fair to say that the committee members who invented the Taegeuk & yudanja poomsae knew their karate kata very well and some influence was bound to bleed through at times.
     
  9. Daniel Sullivan

    Daniel Sullivan Grandmaster

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    I changed 'KKW' to 'Taegeuk, as the Palgwe are also KKW pumse.

    I'd say that that pretty much sums it up.:)
     
  10. leadleg

    leadleg Blue Belt

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    How many 'modern' practitioners (of any art that uses forms) sees those forms as a waste of time? A class-filler? Something that really doesn't apply to actual training? I'd say the majority.
    I am sure you are wrong on this aspect, as a TKD guy with many TKD friends all over the world this statement is eroneous at best. Kong do, you are simply stating things you have heard nothing you have experienced. Most of your posts are semi- trolling, and if called out you start whining and repping.
     
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  11. Daniel Sullivan

    Daniel Sullivan Grandmaster

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    I fixed this; at first, I thought you were restating KSD's post because you didn't use the quote function; it just blended in with your rebuttal.
     
  12. Gorilla

    Gorilla Master of Arts

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    yep...some make allot more definitive statements than others
     
  13. Daniel Sullivan

    Daniel Sullivan Grandmaster

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    Yes, but all of mine are correct!

    Thus spake Daniel Sullivan
     
  14. granfire

    granfire Sr. Grandmaster

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    that it is, but the topic also is the abundance of stories and lore (not to cal it myths and lies ;))
     
  15. Gorilla

    Gorilla Master of Arts

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    Thanks Daniel for doing the heavy lifting on this one...great posts!!!! this is a interesting topic since we are Tkd and Shotokan . Allot of similar techs in both...we love both...
     
  16. Daniel Sullivan

    Daniel Sullivan Grandmaster

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    No real heavy lifting; just first hand experience. Most of what I have posted is readily available to anyone who is interested in such things anyway.

    Indeed. I loved Shotokan back when I did it in high school. Once I graduated, I went to a 'karate' school hoping to keep training and found that their' karate was different. And that's because it was Taekwondo, which I had always associated with Jhoon Rhee (that is where I had taken it prior to high school).
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2012
  17. Kong Soo Do

    Kong Soo Do IKSDA Director

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    I'm sure that you are only commenting upon your personal experience and what you've heard. I have done the same. No difference.

    BTW, I don't know what 'repping' is and I'd like to see where I've 'whined'? I have an opinion, I back up those opinions with personal/professional experience(s) and I comment on them. If they don't agree with your opinion then we obviously haven't had the same experiences.
     
  18. Kong Soo Do

    Kong Soo Do IKSDA Director

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    Some of us have quite a bit more experience than others :uhyeah:

    Opps...that sounded 'arrogant'. :ultracool
     
  19. Daniel Sullivan

    Daniel Sullivan Grandmaster

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    And there's nothing wrong with that in and of itself.

    Speaking generally however, there are times when personal experience, no matter how lengthy, does not equip us with knowledge of specific areas that may fall either outside of our experience or in which our lengthy experience only touches on.

    And what we've heard is never a good basis for definitive statements unless the only thing one is definitive about is that they have heard it. Particularly when making statements of a technical nature.
     
  20. Kong Soo Do

    Kong Soo Do IKSDA Director

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    Agree 100%.
     

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