Experienced Knifers

[Cruentus]

This conversation does lend value to the practice of drawing. I address drawing in my classes for this reason, but I know a lot of other "knife fighting" schools don't, yet should. If you can't deploy your weapon in time to defend the attack, then your weapon is of no use.

PAUL

 

[Gaucho]

Paul, you are absolutely right. If you can't get the blade out and in play, then you might as well not carry it. Nothing makes me angrier than when I discover that a new student of mine hasn't been doing their 'drawing and cutting' homework.

An area of combat where people often forget to practice drawing and cutting is on the ground. Against a skilled grappler (and we have some truly world class grapplers in our organization...me not being one of them ) once they have you on the ground, you really have to learn the ways and moments to draw your blade and get it into play. You usually only get one little chance.

Mario

 

[arnisador]

Someone else, in a thread from a ways back, posted that he had had time to get a folder out of a pocket but not time to open it and found that throwing it was a useful tactic! (Maybe this was arnisandyz?) Even though it was closed it still had a scare factor because it was a knife and a distraction factor. It goes to show, a knife can be used in more than one way.

 

[Gaucho]

One of our Amoks in South Africa (hands down the most dangerous place to live in the world) was just ambushed by a group of thugs. As he was being pounded, he was able to draw a blade and started stabbing the ***** out of his attackers. They're adrenaline was running so high that they did not even notice until he screamed out "You morons! What's wrong with you! I have a knife and I am stabbing all of you!" At which point they stopped, looked down at themselves, saw the blood and ran away with horrified looks on their faces. Interesting lesson.

You need to talk to your attacker and let him know how you are going to hurt him, how you have hurt him, how much he is bleeding, how much worse it is going to get, how weak he is looking...use your imagination.

I don't know if I'd advocate throwing my knife away- I'd use it as a fistload until I could draw it instead (if that was still necessary by that point), but hey whatever works.

Throwing stuff at your attackers to distract them definitely works well. I've done it and many of our guys have done it at one time or another. Carrying a fake wallet to use as a distraction and throwing weapon is a useful thing...hint hint

Mario

 

[arnisandyz]

Originally posted by arnisador
Someone else, in a thread from a ways back, posted that he had had time to get a folder out of a pocket but not time to open it and found that throwing it was a useful tactic! (Maybe this was arnisandyz?)

Not me. I think it was my partner Aldon.

Andy

 

[AldonAsher]

Originally posted by arnisador
Someone else, in a thread from a ways back, posted that he had had time to get a folder out of a pocket but not time to open it and found that throwing it was a useful tactic! (Maybe this was arnisandyz?) Even though it was closed it still had a scare factor because it was a knife and a distraction factor. It goes to show, a knife can be used in more than one way.

Guilty as charged. I used that tactic once to escape an ambush I walked into in Tampa about eight years ago (ah, to be that young and stupid again...). It was at night so I think my attacker didn't know what I threw at him. Either way, I was gone by the time he realized what happened.

 

[arnisador]

Sorry for the confusion, gentleman! Still, it's a good point and I have made it in teaching several times since reading the post--if you can't open it you can always hurl it!

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by arnisador
Sorry for the confusion, gentleman! Still, it's a good point and I have made it in teaching several times since reading the post--if you can't open it you can always hurl it!

I am not trying to be critical here, but I practice drawing and opening so It takes no longet then a second for me to deploy me knife. I feel that if I have enough time to take it out and throw it, then I have enough time to open it and not throw away my weapon.

I am not saying Aldon did the wrong thing, because he did indeed survive. Also, if someone has a gun and I know they are going to shoot, throwing can be a good delay. I am just making the point, that if you practice opening and drawing you might have less of a problem (I say 20 or more draws in your daily clothes every morning until you can deploy it in a second or less).

Respectfully,

PAUL

 

[Gaucho]

I'm with you, Paul. I would never throw away my last knife unless there was absolutely no other choice.

Like you say, you must practice drawing the knife in your street clothes several times every day- with your shirt tucked in and hanging out, with a coat on and without, with gloves on, with your hands wet, when your hands are freezing...you get the idea. Practice drawing as you move, turn, spin, as you are falling to the ground, as you are getting up from the ground. Practice drawing your R side blade with your L hand and vice versa. You should get to the point where that knife just leaps of its own free will into your hand and opens itself like magic whenever you need it.

The tactical folders and fixed blades (and more importantly their carry systems) nowadays are much more user-friendly than the ones available to us in the '60s, '70s, and '80s. There is no reason not to become lightning fast at drawing one.

Mario

 

[Cruentus]

Oh yea...and too add to your post, Gaucho, when you live in a chilly place like Michigan, practice drawing with your gloves on! It has a totally different feel. I hadn't been practicing this, I am embarrassed to admit, and a few weeks ago I was fumble fingers with the gloves! (getting better now)

It takes very little skill to learn drawing, just patience and PRACTICE!

 

[AldonAsher]

Paul, I agree with you. If you carry a knife, you need to practice drawing it quickly. But most people don't (myself included). That was my point when I originally posted that story.

I was very inexperienced in the FMA at the time of the incident(still am, come to think of it) and was never taught that I needed to learn how to draw the knife (hence, the reference to my stupidity). Go figure.

I didn't think; I just reacted. I was scared. I panicked. I think he had something pointing at me. To this day, I don't really know if he had a gun or not. But, based on my reaction, I sure thought he did! A lot of it is still a blur. Later, it took an hour just for me to calm down (and a few seconds after that to realize I needed to change my underwear!!)

Let's be honest: No one really knows how they are going to react in that situation. Not unless you have trained realistically (which my training at that time was not) or have been there before.

Thanks for the insight, Paul.

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by AldonAsher
Paul, I agree with you. If you carry a knife, you need to practice drawing it quickly. But most people don't (myself included). That was my point when I originally posted that story.

I was very inexperienced in the FMA at the time of the incident(still am, come to think of it) and was never taught that I needed to learn how to draw the knife (hence, the reference to my stupidity). Go figure.

I didn't think; I just reacted. I was scared. I panicked. I think he had something pointing at me. To this day, I don't really know if he had a gun or not. But, based on my reaction, I sure thought he did! A lot of it is still a blur. Later, it took an hour just for me to calm down (and a few seconds after that to realize I needed to change my underwear!!)

Let's be honest: No one really knows how they are going to react in that situation. Not unless you have trained realistically (which my training at that time was not) or have been there before.

Thanks for the insight, Paul.

Oh...no problem man! I wasn't trying to discredit you at all, so everyone knows; I was just trying to show the value of draw practice. I think you thought on your toes, overcame your fears, and you survived. You set a good example for your peers here on MT to learn from. Thank you for sharing your story! :asian:

 

[Gaucho]

Absolutely Aldon. You didn't freeze up. You weren't a victim. You weren't a sheep. You fought, you thought on your feet, and it saved your life. That's what a warrior does. BRAVO.

Hell, I've made so many mistakes that almost got me killed or seriously hurt over the years that I cringe thinking about. Half the fights I was in I probably could have avoided completely or ended much more efficiently if I knew then what I know now. But I didn't...and yet I still survived. You fight the best fight you can. If you survive, you try and learn something from it for next time. That's all you or anyone else can ask of you.

Was throwing your knife at the BG the best thing you could have done in the circumstance? Who the hell knows. It was the best thing you could come up with at the time given your level of training and experience, and hey, it worked. Would you do it differently now given your higher level of training and experience? Probably. That's the advantage that real world training and experience give you- the ability to see and choose the better options on the fly under duress.

BTW, I was just thinking about something I hadn't mentioned early. If you normally carry folders, you should as soon as you can afford them, get or make (by serious rounding over the tip and the edge) training folders exactly like what you normally carry. Likewise if you carry fixed blades. Use these realistic trainers in all of your scenario work. It is one thing to be able to draw an aluminum fixed blade trainer out of your pocket during adrenalized training, it is quite another thing to draw and put into play a folder. The last thing you want is to be in a real fight and have your folder fly out of your hand as you try to draw it or worse have it cut the ***** out of your own hand!

Mario

 

[Gaucho]

Oh, and using realistically shaped and weighted hard trainers during scenario work gives you a much better feel for which disarms work in realtime and which don't than a soft trainer. Soft trainers give the false impression that a lot of disarms don't work that actually DO against a real knife.

You still obviously have the issue of trainers not giving you the same type of diminishment and destruction as a live blade, but you can't have everything .

Mario

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by PAUL
I am not trying to be critical here, but I practice drawing and opening so It takes no longet then a second for me to deploy me knife. I feel that if I have enough time to take it out and throw it, then I have enough time to open it and not throw away my weapon.

I agree that practicing drawing and opening is important, but not that if you have enough time to get it into your hand then you always have enough time to get a decent grip on it and get it open, in a tense and moving situation.

Of course, throwing away one's weapon--and giving one's opponent a knife!--is a last resort, and opening the weapon and either brandishing it (to warn away) or using it is better.

But, I carry mine in a front jeans or shirt or jacket pocket typically, not a belt sheath (inappropriate where I work, for example), and getting at it is already an issue if I'm surprised--if I do get, it may be upside-down of what-have-you. using it as a kubotan or a distraction may be my options.

I only disgaree with you on one point--from the tales I hear, from skilled people as well as novices, it isn't at all clear to me that getting and opening your folder will be feasible. I don't advocate throwing away a weapon--the infamous solo disarm--but i think it's worth thinking about. I can imagine situations where I might chuck it at someone's face, scream "KNIFE!" for the shock/scare effect, and run as if my life depended on it...for obvious reasons. I see it as a potential get-away issue.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Some of the best advise I have seen posted on EH vs Knife.
Thanks for the great post
:asian:

 

[Brian King]

Originally posted by PAUL
I am not trying to be critical here, but I practice drawing and opening so It takes no longet then a second for me to deploy me knife. I feel that if I have enough time to take it out and throw it, then I have enough time to open it and not throw away my weapon.

Practicing drawing the knife and getting it into action is great. The idea of practicing the draw is kind of a fun exercise. While you are practicing it is interesting to have one or two people hitting/ kicking you. Have someone stand beside you and be ‘stinky’ with your drawing hand/arm. Have them hold it down, move it to the side or out to the front trying to keep you from accessing your weapon system. Also drawing while in a roll is interesting. And as long as you are on the ground practice getting to your weapon while evading (surviving) three or four ‘friends’ putting the boots to you. Another interesting drill is to draw your knife while an experienced swordsman starts to work you over. It is amazing how long a second really is when you are being stressed.

See you on the mat soon
Friends
Brian

 

[Gaucho]

Great stuff Brian .

Learning to relax, absorb and evade while being kicked on the ground is an outstanding exercise. As you say, learning how to draw your knife in that circumstance, learning how to successively get back up on your feet, all these things breed confidence.

A second can feel like an eternity. Have you guys tried this?

We do this drill at the beginning of every class. We call it 'the 30 second drill':

Cold right off the street with no warm up whatsoever we pair off randomlyand attack one another in full berzerker mode for about 30 secs to a minute. First blade against blade, then blade Vs EH, then whatever- stick Vs EHs, etc. You cannot run. You have to stay together and fight it out- prevent the other guy from killing you and find a way to kill him. We keep switching partners randomly and continue until we're too pooped to go on anymore.

It can feel like an eternity until you get used to it. It really wakes you up .

The object of the drill, obviously, is to learn to deal with the committed ambush. It explodes that instant in time in order to teach the student to go from resting state to all out fighting effectively for their lives in a blink of an eye. The drill has many useful aspects built into it including fear, controlling the autonomic fight/flight response, the need to relax, the need to breathe effectively, speed, application of heavy forearm parries, simultaneous attack and defense...and so on.

The results over time are dramatic. People get very good at this.

Those of you who haven't should give it a try.

Have fun,

Mario

 

[arnisador]

Is there an attacker and a defender in the drill, or are both sides attacking?

 

[Old Tiger]

We have done similiar drill many times. Especially when the weather is good and you can do it outside. It is enlightening and exhausting. In addition to learning what works and what doesn't (for example: control the thumb on the opponents knife holding hand if you are unarmed. What I mean is, hold it closed so that the knife can't be switched to his other hand in the melee', and so he can't rotate it around to cut your hand, can't lose the blade until you are ready to disarm. Interestingly enough, it seems most of thes encounters end up on the ground which provides yet another interesting scenario.) And you are right, it is very exhausting and will develop a unique type of stamina. Plus you learn to turn on that killer instinct instantly. You just need to find or develop partners that you can really "go" with.