Experience...helpful but not necessary?

[ralphmcpherson]

Are you thinking about opening your own school? Personally, I don't see how you could advance to 5th Dan without having your own school and your own students.

There are heaps of 5th dans (in many martial arts), who dont own their own school or have their own students. Fifth dan grading requirements at both karate schools Ive attended and most tkd schools I know of make no mention of having their own school.

 

[Dragons TKD]

Are you thinking about opening your own school? Personally, I don't see how you could advance to 5th Dan without having your own school and your own students.

The head instructor is a 6th dan and I'm one of two 5th dans. We also have three 4th dans that also are part of the club. The club itself has been around for over 20 years. I came from one of the larger chain of schools in the area and I've only been with this club for 5 years.

Also, we are thinking about getting our own storefront in the near future. Our classes have exploded and we can't handle the students with our current setup. We have to break our classes up into 2 groups and put them in different rooms right now. With our own school, we would be able to have a kids class, a color belt class and a high belt class. We have to have everyone in the same class currently, which hasn't been an issue until about 6 months ago when our enrollment doubled.

 

[ATC]

There are heaps of 5th dans (in many martial arts), who dont own their own school or have their own students. Fifth dan grading requirements at both karate schools Ive attended and most tkd schools I know of make no mention of having their own school.

One of our requierments to get you 4th Dan is to be the head instructor of a school for at least 2 years. To get your 3rd DAN in our system you must assist and lead classes throughout your 2nd DAN.

 

[puunui]

One of our requierments to get you 4th Dan is to be the head instructor of a school for at least 2 years. To get your 3rd DAN in our system you must assist and lead classes throughout your 2nd DAN.

I can understand the reasoning behind such a policy. Why have instructor level rank if you are not willing or not able to accept instructor level responsibilities?

 

[ralphmcpherson]

One of our requierments to get you 4th Dan is to be the head instructor of a school for at least 2 years. To get your 3rd DAN in our system you must assist and lead classes throughout your 2nd DAN.

Yes, I am aware of a few schools who do this. It seems different schools have different policies on this. I can understand both schools of thought but personally I dont think someone should have to teach to advance through the ranks. In saying that, everyone does at least a bit of instructing. I train with many 5th and 6th dans who dont want to instruct or have their own schools, yet lower belts are regularly asking for advice on all aspects of tkd and they are more than happy to take the time to give advice and instruction, but technically speaking they are not instructors.

 

[jks9199]

What if someone is in a location that the market just won't support yet another martial arts school? Are they limited in advancement to 2nd or maybe 3rd dan? What if they simply can't afford to run a school or club, or are just not that good a teacher? Is there no room for technical advancement and recognition?

 

[dancingalone]

What if someone is in a location that the market just won't support yet another martial arts school? Are they limited in advancement to 2nd or maybe 3rd dan? What if they simply can't afford to run a school or club, or are just not that good a teacher? Is there no room for technical advancement and recognition?

I understand the reasoning. Nothing keeps individuals from improving their physical skills. On the other hand, if you study a system that defines high dans as teachers and teachers of other teachers, it's not unreasonable to tie further advancement into instruction somehow, even if that means running a school.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

What if someone is in a location that the market just won't support yet another martial arts school? Are they limited in advancement to 2nd or maybe 3rd dan? What if they simply can't afford to run a school or club, or are just not that good a teacher? Is there no room for technical advancement and recognition?

Good point. I knew of one guy who couldnt run his own club because he did not have his own transport to get to and from his own club (he car pooled with others to get to his regular club), I know of another who did not have the finances to start his own club, I know of another 3rd dan who would love to teach but was born deaf and so understandably he could not run his own club, I know of others who have very sporadic hours because of their day job and cannot commit to monday and wednesday from 6.30 - 7.30 every week without fail, I know of another who is a school teacher and uses tkd as his 'escape' and the last thing he wants to do is 'teach' and the list goes on and on. I think its unfair to deny these people advancement if they are still training regularly and improving all the time.

 

[puunui]

What if someone is in a location that the market just won't support yet another martial arts school? Are they limited in advancement to 2nd or maybe 3rd dan?

There is always room for one more school. Where there is a will, there is a way. If the student doesn't understand that yet, then in my opinion, they are not ready to be promoted to instructor rank.

What if they simply can't afford to run a school or club,

Where there is a will, there is a way. If the student doesn't understand that yet, then in my opinion, they are not ready to be promoted to instructor rank.

or are just not that good a teacher?

Where there is a will, there is a way. If the student doesn't understand that yet, then in my opinion, they are not ready to be promoted to instructor rank.

Is there no room for technical advancement and recognition?

Where there is a will, there is a way. If the student doesn't understand that yet, then in my opinion, they are not ready to be promoted to instructor rank.

Basically, the questions that you present are excuses, something that in my opinion an instructor level practitioner recognizes are invalid reasons for going forward. Nothing would be accomplished if all possible objections must first be overcome.

The difference between an instructor level practitioner (4th Dan and above) and a non-instructor practitioner (3rd Dan and below) is that the non-instructor practitioner learns primarily under an instructor, while the instructor level practitioner learn primarily by himself, in his own dojang, with his own students. When you have your own school, you are the captain of your own ship. With that freedom comes certain responsibilities. If the student is unable or unwilling to accept those responsibilities, then in my opinion they are not entitled to the corresponding freedom and rank that goes along with that responsibility.

And that responsibility grows with each rank one receives. If you are doing exactly the same thing as a 6th Dan as you were as a 4th Dan for example, then something went wrong. You should be thinking different thoughts and focusing on different things at each different dan level.

When you get promoted in the military, your job responsibility changes correspondingly. As a buck private, you have little responsibility and little freedom. As a general, you have great responsibility and great freedom, compared to the buck private. If someone does not wish to accept greater responsibility in the military, then they get passed over for promotion. It is unreasonable for the person who wishes to remain a platoon sergeant his whole life to expect a general's rank and privilege.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

All I can say is thank god my school doesnt operate that way. I would hate to train somewhere where it is expected of me to teach someday. I have seen many lazy, unmotivated instructors in my time and I can only assume the reason they are instructing is because they have to in order to gain promotion. For me personally, I want to teach so it wouldnt affect me as much, but to be a good teacher someone has got to be charismatic, extroverted (to a point) and motivated to do so. In my opinion saying 'everyone must teach' is just asking for sub standard instructors. Our GM only wants people to instruct if its what they really want to do and if they have the personality type to suit the proffession. Each to their own though I guess.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

All I can say is thank god my school doesnt operate that way. I would hate to train somewhere where it is expected of me to teach someday. I have seen many lazy, unmotivated instructors in my time and I can only assume the reason they are instructing is because they have to in order to gain promotion.

The counter question is this: Why gain promotion if all you want to do is train? If all one wants is a higher dan grade but does not want greater responsibility, then they have an ego issue in my opinion. If they are lazy and unmotivated as instructors, chances are that they do not enjoy or are perhaps miserable in the instructor's role. If their sole motivation is promotion, then they probably are not mature enough for the grades that they hold.

For me personally, I want to teach so it wouldnt affect me as much, but to be a good teacher someone has got to be charismatic, extroverted (to a point) and motivated to do so. In my opinion saying 'everyone must teach' is just asking for sub standard instructors. Our GM only wants people to instruct if its what they really want to do and if they have the personality type to suit the proffession. Each to their own though I guess.

Yes, but that is not what Glenn said. He said that fourth dan and up is an instructor level rank. Nobody requires you to test for fourth dan. If you just want to keep on training, then nothing is stopping you from doing so as a third dan.

In and of itself, rank is unimportant. But it is not meaningless. The higher you go in dan grades, the more the emphasis is on giving back to and promoting the art. The primary way of giving back to and of promoting a martial art is to either open one's own school and teach or teach in a larger facility (thus facilitating the attendence of more students). So if you don't want to do that, then you should not seek a dan grade higher than third.

There is a reason that fourth dans can sign off on dan certificates. The reason is that they are assumed to be teaching their own students and either running their own or be on their way to running their own dojang. If that was not an explicit responsibility, the ability to promote students to dan grades would not be given.

Daniel

 

[andyjeffries]

The counter question is this: Why gain promotion if all you want to do is train? If all one wants is a higher dan grade but does not want greater responsibility, then they have an ego issue in my opinion. If they are lazy and unmotivated as instructors, chances are that they do not enjoy or are perhaps miserable in the instructor's role. If their sole motivation is promotion, then they probably are not mature enough for the grades that they hold.

There are a great number of situations you are not covering. The choices aren't student or instructor. For example, my Grandmaster enjoys travelling round and helping different groups of people (sometimes with teaching them, sometimes promoting them). He also tries to help out on a national level with organisational/coaching.

He isn't interested though in running his own club. IMHO he has a valid reason for wanting high dan rank, and ego is nothing to do with it.

Not everyone's path is the same.

Yes, but that is not what Glenn said. He said that fourth dan and up is an instructor level rank. Nobody requires you to test for fourth dan. If you just want to keep on training, then nothing is stopping you from doing so as a third dan.

You say there's nothing to stop you staying a third dan, but there's also nothing coded in the Kukkiwon regulations about it being necessary to teach to obtain higher dan rank. Therefore, there's nothing to stop you from training up until 9th Dan without ever having had a personal student.

The Kukkiwon apparently realises there is success in multiple paths or the rules (like some other groups, e.g. the ATA as we have recently heard) would be different.

In and of itself, rank is unimportant. But it is not meaningless. The higher you go in dan grades, the more the emphasis is on giving back to and promoting the art. The primary way of giving back to and of promoting a martial art is to either open one's own school and teach or teach in a larger facility (thus facilitating the attendence of more students).

It sounds like you're advocating assistant instructors (the "or" after opening one's own school above) having higher dan rank than third? In which case surely this covers most people as most black belts assist in the teaching some of the time.

There is a reason that fourth dans can sign off on dan certificates.

I would argue the reason is that with the time you have spent (considering time requirements for each rank) training Taekwondo, that fourth dan is a reasonable point where you could be reasonably thought to be a decent judge of what each dan should be able to do/look like. I don't think it relates to whether you have your own club but a finger in the air "you've been doing it long enough, you can realistically judge what those below you do in terms of grade".

The reason is that they are assumed to be teaching their own students and either running their own or be on their way to running their own dojang. If that was not an explicit responsibility, the ability to promote students to dan grades would not be given

I would argue this is an implicit responsibility rather than explicit. The reason is that if it were an explicit responsibility to be teaching your own students that would be easily provable - how many Kukkiwon certificates have you applied for in the past x years since your last test.

Of course, many MNA wouldn't like that (as they don't like gradings outside the official association ones), but that would be an easy way for the Kukkiwon (or whoever) to judge whether you are running your own school.

My personal situation is that I have a rank above 3rd Dan but don't* have my own school. I'm an assistant instructor at my school and have been told in the past that I will be running the school when our instructor retires. Arguably therefore, I don't need higher than 3rd Dan. When the time comes though, I would then promote to 4th Dan so I could promote the students but I would be a lower rank than the club's competitors in the local area. Why does that seem sensible that I should remain 3rd Dan until that time?

* I have actually taken the decision to start my own club teaching children on a weekend now because I feel I'm at the stage of my life/Taekwondo career where I'd like to be passing on what I know to my own set of students. However, the above feelings remain true and I don't feel I should be restricted in rank until I have my own club.

 

[andyjeffries]

Man, that was a long reply - I should have broken that up in to multiple replies so it's easier to reply to each point. Sorry y'all...

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

There are a great number of situations you are not covering. The choices aren't student or instructor. For example, my Grandmaster enjoys travelling round and helping different groups of people (sometimes with teaching them, sometimes promoting them). He also tries to help out on a national level with organisational/coaching.

He isn't interested though in running his own club. IMHO he has a valid reason for wanting high dan rank, and ego is nothing to do with it.

Not everyone's path is the same.



You say there's nothing to stop you staying a third dan, but there's also nothing coded in the Kukkiwon regulations about it being necessary to teach to obtain higher dan rank. Therefore, there's nothing to stop you from training up until 9th Dan without ever having had a personal student.

The Kukkiwon apparently realises there is success in multiple paths or the rules (like some other groups, e.g. the ATA as we have recently heard) would be different.



It sounds like you're advocating assistant instructors (the "or" after opening one's own school above) having higher dan rank than third? In which case surely this covers most people as most black belts assist in the teaching some of the time.



I would argue the reason is that with the time you have spent (considering time requirements for each rank) training Taekwondo, that fourth dan is a reasonable point where you could be reasonably thought to be a decent judge of what each dan should be able to do/look like. I don't think it relates to whether you have your own club but a finger in the air "you've been doing it long enough, you can realistically judge what those below you do in terms of grade".



I would argue this is an implicit responsibility rather than explicit. The reason is that if it were an explicit responsibility to be teaching your own students that would be easily provable - how many Kukkiwon certificates have you applied for in the past x years since your last test.

Of course, many MNA wouldn't like that (as they don't like gradings outside the official association ones), but that would be an easy way for the Kukkiwon (or whoever) to judge whether you are running your own school.

My personal situation is that I have a rank above 3rd Dan but don't* have my own school. I'm an assistant instructor at my school and have been told in the past that I will be running the school when our instructor retires. Arguably therefore, I don't need higher than 3rd Dan. When the time comes though, I would then promote to 4th Dan so I could promote the students but I would be a lower rank than the club's competitors in the local area. Why does that seem sensible that I should remain 3rd Dan until that time?

* I have actually taken the decision to start my own club teaching children on a weekend now because I feel I'm at the stage of my life/Taekwondo career where I'd like to be passing on what I know to my own set of students. However, the above feelings remain true and I don't feel I should be restricted in rank until I have my own club.

Of course there are reasons that I am not covering. My statements were not intended to be carved in stone, 'all must do thusly.' Overall, I will stand by them.

You offered two exceptions. Yourself, and your GM.

You are working toward school ownership and are teaching on some level (I'm not sure what you mean by assistant instructor: do you mean that you assist another instructor who runs the class or that you are running your own classes but are not the head instructor?).

Your grandmaster almost certainly had a school at one time, and most certainly taught his own classes at one time. And while your grandmaster may not run a club, he certainly either owns one or promoted someone who does; he wouldn't be your grandmaster otherwise.

Your grandmaster does something that certainly promotes and give back to the art, but it is not the primary way that the art is promoted. The majority of people are brought into taekwondo via the opening of studios and have little to no experience in taekwondo outside of the studio.

Yes, there certainly are exceptions, but as a general rule, there should not be gobs of TKD fourth and fifth dans who have no interest in teaching and/or running a dojang, particularly in one school.

Daniel

 

[andyjeffries]

Of course there are reasons that I am not covering. My statements were not intended to be carved in stone, 'all must do thusly.' Overall, I will stand by them.

You offered two exceptions. Yourself, and your GM.

You are working toward school ownership

I get you, so it's intention that's the key part for you. You are OK with someone gaining higher rank if they intend to teach their own club at some point. If they expressly have no such intention then they should be no higher than third. Do I have you correct?

If so, I'm more on board with that... I would amend it to just "intend to teach" not necessarily have their own club though.

and are teaching on some level (I'm not sure what you mean by assistant instructor: do you mean that you assist another instructor who runs the class or that you are running your own classes but are not the head instructor?).

I sometimes run classes but am not the head instructor, sometimes I just teach groups of students within the class under the head instructor.

Your grandmaster almost certainly had a school at one time, and most certainly taught his own classes at one time.

Indeed, he founded the school I still train at

And while your grandmaster may not run a club, he certainly either owns one or promoted someone who does; he wouldn't be your grandmaster otherwise.

As above.

Your grandmaster does something that certainly promotes and give back to the art, but it is not the primary way that the art is promoted. The majority of people are brought into taekwondo via the opening of studios and have little to no experience in taekwondo outside of the studio.

Yes, there certainly are exceptions, but as a general rule, there should not be gobs of TKD fourth and fifth dans who have no interest in teaching and/or running a dojang, particularly in one school.

This is the first time I've really noticed the intention/interest rather than actually doing being important and I guess I almost agree with it. If you aren't interested in passing it on in any shape or form there's no need. If you want to pass the art on in some shape or form or help promote others so they can, then I'm all for it.

 

[puunui]

There are a great number of situations you are not covering. The choices aren't student or instructor. For example, my Grandmaster enjoys travelling round and helping different groups of people (sometimes with teaching them, sometimes promoting them). He also tries to help out on a national level with organisational/coaching. He isn't interested though in running his own club. IMHO he has a valid reason for wanting high dan rank, and ego is nothing to do with it. Not everyone's path is the same.

The point though is that he did go through the step of establishing his own school and teaching his own students and developing his own curriculum and style. That is an important step in the journey. Now he is at a different stage of his journey, so of course we don't expect him to be out there teaching white belts how to tie their belt. That should be handled by other students while he does other things.

You say there's nothing to stop you staying a third dan, but there's also nothing coded in the Kukkiwon regulations about it being necessary to teach to obtain higher dan rank. Therefore, there's nothing to stop you from training up until 9th Dan without ever having had a personal student.

Name one 9th Dan that you know that never had his/her own dojang.

I would argue this is an implicit responsibility rather than explicit. The reason is that if it were an explicit responsibility to be teaching your own students that would be easily provable - how many Kukkiwon certificates have you applied for in the past x years since your last test.

Actually the Kukkiwon does keep track of those kinds of things. They have a book with all instructor's names in it and it lists by year how many poom and dan recommendations you have processed.

* I have actually taken the decision to start my own club teaching children on a weekend now because I feel I'm at the stage of my life/Taekwondo career where I'd like to be passing on what I know to my own set of students. However, the above feelings remain true and I don't feel I should be restricted in rank until I have my own club.

Of course not. No one like to be told no and no one wants to feel held back. And of course you can get promoted if that is what your instructor wants to do. But I am not talking about pieces of paper but rather the journey through the dan ranks, and what each dan rank stands for. If you do not have your own school with your own students and your own curriculum, then your development will be retarded or stopped, in much the same way as your development will be different if you continue to live in your parent's home and never make a home of your own. You might not realize it now, but perhaps you will later, after you do take over the school and/or fully develop the program you got going on the weekends.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I think this just highlights the beauty of having so many martial arts schools to choose from. I can understand both sides of the debate, but I strongly disagree that you should have to instruct or be a school owner to gain promotion beyond 4th dan. So, in my case I just choose a school who has the same belief as me, just as someone who believes that teaching should be a requirement can choose a school that can take them down that path. For me, dans indicate 'time in grade', not skill level or teaching credentials. I can look at a 4th dan and just know they have been training roughly 10 years since getting a black belt for example. I just see too many 2nd dans who are better than 4th dans (for instance). Like anything requiring physical ability and co ordination it is just unrealistic to think that person 'a' and person 'b' will be the same skill level just because they have the same number of stripes on their belt. The whole "4th dan is instructor rank" and "6th dan is master rank" really makes no sense to me. I have trained under 1st dans who are much better teachers than 5th dans and vice versa. To me, the dan just shows me how long someone has been training and no more.

 

[andyjeffries]

The point though is that he did go through the step of establishing his own school and teaching his own students and developing his own curriculum and style. That is an important step in the journey. Now he is at a different stage of his journey, so of course we don't expect him to be out there teaching white belts how to tie their belt. That should be handled by other students while he does other things.

OK, fair enough.

Name one 9th Dan that you know that never had his/her own dojang.

I'll be honest, I cannot. To turn it around - can you name the section of the Kukkiwon Promotion Regulations that says school ownership/number of promotions is required for promotion to Kukkiwon 9th Dan? Or can you name anyone that has been denied a Kukkiwon 9th Dan for solely this reason?

Actually the Kukkiwon does keep track of those kinds of things. They have a book with all instructor's names in it and it lists by year how many poom and dan recommendations you have processed.

That won't look so good for those instructors in countries where the WTF MNA wants all kukkiwon promotions to go through them then, like the UK.

But I am not talking about pieces of paper but rather the journey through the dan ranks, and what each dan rank stands for. If you do not have your own school with your own students and your own curriculum, then your development will be retarded or stopped, in much the same way as your development will be different if you continue to live in your parent's home and never make a home of your own. You might not realize it now, but perhaps you will later, after you do take over the school and/or fully develop the program you got going on the weekends.

Well, you and I have known each other for enough years that I think we'll still know each other in another 5 or 10, so maybe we'll have this discussion again then and we'll see if you're right...

 

[puunui]

I'll be honest, I cannot. To turn it around - can you name the section of the Kukkiwon Promotion Regulations that says school ownership/number of promotions is required for promotion to Kukkiwon 9th Dan? Or can you name anyone that has been denied a Kukkiwon 9th Dan for solely this reason?

Frankly, I don't know anyone who comes near that sort of rank who has not at one time or another had a dojang of their own.

I remember a discussion with my first Hapkido teacher (who also did Taekwondo), who was encouraging me to open my own school. I told him that I hated teaching and much more enjoyed training and learning. He said that I could do that, but there comes a point where I needed to open my own school in order to progress. He said that in his generation of Korean born practitioners who moved to the US, there was a big difference between those instructors who had dojang in Korea, and those that did not. He said that Korean Martial Arts are built around the idea of a student opening up their own school, that it was automatically assumed once a student reached a certain point and that if you do not, then your teachers, seniors, peers and juniors looked down at you, for being unwilling to take the next step so to speak.

He said I had to open my own school, which I begrudgingly did. I didn't understand what he was talking about at the time, but eventually I did realize what he did for me, gently pushing me out of the nest. I still visit him and call him Sabumnim, and when I do visit he tells me what his other students who have opened dojang are doing. We were very close and he once told me that he treated his students like his children, but I was more like his younger brother, even though he was way older than me. Again I didn't realize what he was saying until much later. Because of that, we talked about a lot of things that he generally didn't mention to others, like the above. When he retired he ended up giving me all the stuff in his dojang.

He started training in the early 1950's, and it was a period of great expansion of the martial arts. The Modern History book touches upon this when it discusses how each Kwan competed with one another to be the biggest and best. The Korean Martial Arts could not have grown to the size that it currently is unless there is a strong emphasis and policy of having students open their own dojang. This policy is also embedded in the Kukkiwon yudanja poomsae, which we discussed earlier. 4th Dan, or Pyongwon is all about teaching.

That won't look so good for those instructors in countries where the WTF MNA wants all kukkiwon promotions to go through them then, like the UK.

I don't know about that sort of thing. I just said that the Kukkiwon does keep track of those kinds of things. I don't know how that information is used. The count is done for those who process directly with the Kukkiwon, as opposed to those who go through their MNA. We looked up my recommendations and there was a big hole when I used to go through the USTU.

Well, you and I have known each other for enough years that I think we'll still know each other in another 5 or 10, so maybe we'll have this discussion again then and we'll see if you're right...

I've seen positive change and growth in you over the years so I am sure there will be more of the same in 5 or 10 years as well....

 

[ralphmcpherson]

So, is there a section of the Kukkiwon Promotion Regulations that says school ownership/number of promotions is required for promotion to Kukkiwon 9th Dan, or even 4th dan for that matter? If its so important then surely it would be a hard and fast requirement and not just a theory.