Evolution in taekwondo

[MSUTKD]

When questions are actually relevant, at the time, I will answer them sir. Maybe.

 

[puunui]

I totally agree with you, from their point of view they had to organize and somehow unify martial arts. They had to be nationalistic. Dr. Kim did something that was amazing and really had singular vision. Without him this would all be very different. However, to build the framework they used distorted propaganda and enforced it to dogma.

More on this premise statement of yours. First we don't totally agree. You operate under the assumption and premise that Taekwondo was built on a framework of "distorted propaganda" and then take it from there. I reject your premise and ask you to first establish what exactly was the distorted propaganda? Nationalism had something to do with it, but it was not the all encompassing directive that you make it out to be and was not within your context of distorted propaganda and dogma.

 

[MSUTKD]

There is a lot of factual errors in that paper, which was written in 1995, so much so that it throws the whole premise of his thesis into question. Given all of the historical information that has come out since that paper was written, I seriously wonder whether Steve Capener still feels the same way today.

I will ask him.

 

[puunui]

Not exactly true. There is no inference of status,"now being the lowest titles". Different country, correct. Different usage, somewhat correct. Different meaning, incorrect. It is clear you do not understand hanja. Please read my response to Master Cole and using the internet to translate. Not that you did that here but it give a better picture of the structure of hanja.

I guess in that sense you are right; there is no inference, since the titles sabum (Shihan) and kyosa (kyoshi) are the lowest titles one can have in Taekwondo, unlike in Japanese martial arts styles, wherein they are highest titles. According to the WTF, the sabum title is how you refer to someone who is 1st-3rd Dan; I know of no Japanese martial arts system that calls its 1st through 3rd Dans Shihan. Same thing with kyosa. In most schools that use such titles, it is reserved for assistant instructor level students, 1st Dans frequently. Again, I know of no Japanese martial arts who use the title kyoshi to refer to 1st Dans.

I did read your post to Mastercole regarding hanja. It is obvious that you spent a considerable time writing that post, using dictionaries and whatever other sources to help build your case. But I think that work was to some degree misguided, sort of like the efforts to paint Taekwondo's historical and cultural backdrop as "fabricated" or "distorted propaganda" to be misguided.

I know how much you hate going off topic. If you prefer, we can create a new topic and discuss these issues.

 

[puunui]

When questions are actually relevant, at the time, I will answer them sir. Maybe.

They are relevant now because you are the one who is bringing up these points to preface your posts.

 

[puunui]

I will ask him.

While you are doing that, ask him if he would like to make any changes or factual corrections to his paper.

 

[MSUTKD]

More on this premise statement of yours. First we don't totally agree. You operate under the assumption and premise that Taekwondo was built on a framework of "distorted propaganda" and then take it from there. I reject your premise and ask you to first establish what exactly was the distorted propaganda? Nationalism had something to do with it, but it was not the all encompassing directive that you make it out to be and was not within your context of distorted propaganda and dogma.

I think that Capener sums it up for me sir.

 

[MSUTKD]

While you are doing that, ask him if he would like to make any changes or factual corrections to his paper.

Actually, I did just that.

 

[MSUTKD]

I did read your post to Mastercole regarding hanja. It is obvious that you spent a considerable time writing that post, using dictionaries and whatever other sources to help build your case. But I think that work was to some degree misguided, sort of like the efforts to paint Taekwondo's historical and cultural backdrop as "fabricated" or "distorted propaganda" to be misguided.

Lol, you are hilarious. I am a student of this language sir, I of course used a dictionary and thought about a logical explanation to build a case. Like any real academic would. Why on earth would consise thought be considered negative? As I actually understand the language and know that I have an audience whom might not fully understand I used humor, information and examples to make a point that most would understand.
If you feel that my methodology in hanja is incorrect, then by all means call me out. If you can do better, now is the time.

 

[MSUTKD]

I am no longer participating in this thread due to discontinuity.

 

[puunui]

As I actually understand the language and know that I have an audience whom might not fully understand I used humor, information and examples to make a point that most would understand.

I think you might understand parts of the Korean language from a dictionary sense of certain words and characters, but I do not believe that you truly and fully understand the historical and cultural context from which Taekwondo has sprung. If you did, I don't believe you would be making generalizations regarding "fabricated history" or "distorted propaganda".

 

[puunui]

I think that Capener sums it up for me sir.

So you rely 100% on Professor Capener's 1995 thesis paper in support of your opinion that Taekwondo's history is "fabricated", and the result of "distorted propaganda"?

 

[puunui]

Not exactly true. There is no inference of status,"now being the lowest titles". Different country, correct. Different usage, somewhat correct. Different meaning, incorrect. It is clear you do not understand hanja. Please read my response to Master Cole and using the internet to translate. Not that you did that here but it give a better picture of the structure of hanja.

And in furtherance of the topic, instead of using Japanese translations of title, perhaps english titles would be better. In the english speaking world, the title "Master" is afforded a distinguished and often revered place in the martial arts, reserved for "high" ranking practitioners. In Korea, the title is not so revered or distinguished, such that we have the Kukkiwon stating that those 1st through 5th Dan can call themselves master. Some were outraged, saying that this somehow demeans the title and honor of the title Master, that it is wrong, and that we should stop this outrage.

However, I notice no one is protesting the use of high level Japanese martial arts titles like Kyoshi and Shihan for similarly ranked KMA practitioners, 1st Dan and above. Why is that? Why do we protest over the use of titles in one case, and not the other? Why aren't people outraged at the use of Kyoshi for an assistant instructor who is 1st Dan?

Different culture, different language, different use of the same words, a concept that is easily understood by all, whether in your judgment they understand hanja or not.

 

[Tony49]

As Tony Jidosabum or Tony Jidosabumnim or Jidosabumnim, depending on whether you are senior or junior. I suppose it would also be ok to simply say Sabumnim. I still call some of my teachers that.

Thanks. I am new to all the Korean Titles as I hold belts in Kenpo/Eskrima. I am trying to get caught up.

 

[Archtkd]

I think MT and tkd net are geared towards different audiences. Sometimes I think that you and I don't belong here, that we upset the apple cart every time we discuss our perspectives, our studies or our experiences. One person even told me that if they believed everything that I wrote, then that would mean that what they are doing, from the uniform that they wear to the terminology that they use to the way they do poomsae or sparring, basically everything, is wrong.

A large part of taekwondo net on the other hand, are seniors from the highest levels of taekwondo. You post something on taekwondo net, and your name, thoughts and writings will be read by people like Dr. Un Yong Kim, the majority of USTU past presidents as well as the presidents of many WTF MNA worldwide, WTF secretariat, IOC members, IRs including several Olympic IRs, the Kukkiwon, KTA, teaching faculty of chae dae, Samsang S1 Team, etc.

Maybe you and Master Cole need to come down to our small universe sometimes. Those important men you mention -- and I'd be right in saying just men -- don't help us simple folk run our small dojangs, teach our students, scrape up a few coins here and there to attend seminars, locate the best teachers nearby, learn new things at the lower often local level, etc. I don't know of any USTU past president who lives here in the Show Me State, I don't know and have never met any KTA member, I don't know what the Samsang S1 team is, nor have I ever met teaching faculty of chae dae. Does that make me irrelevant? Does that really make me so "different," from a senior Taekwondoin's perspective? Does that make me less able to learn and understand the past, present and future of this martial art and sport that I love and practice with every fiber of my body? No disrespect here and you know this: the Taekwondoin of you and Master Cole's stature and position should help fill the gaps that separate some of us from those that are too far from our small world.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Maybe you and Master Cole need to come down to our small universe sometimes. Those important men you mention -- and I'd be right in saying just men -- don't help us simple folk run our small dojangs, teach our students, scrape up a few coins here and there to attend seminars, locate the best teachers nearby, learn new things at the lower often local level, etc. I don't know of any USTU past president who lives here in the Show Me State, I don't know and have never met any KTA member, I don't know what the Samsang S1 team is, nor have I ever met teaching faculty of chae dae. Does that make me irrelevant? Does that really make me so "different," from a senior Taekwondoin's perspective? Does that make me less able to learn and understand the past, present and future of this martial art and sport that I love and practice with every fiber of my body? No disrespect here and you know this: the Taekwondoin of you and Master Cole's stature and position should help fill the gaps that separate some of us from those that are too far from our small world.

So true. I liken it to the reality tv show "undercover boss". Usually when the boss actually comes and rubs shoulders with the 'simple folk' they realise just how out of touch they are with what is actually going on. I learn a hell of a lot more about tkd talking to "simple folk" than I do reading 'papers' by the heirachy. People get way too caught up in the whole "senior" , "junior" thing. I remember when I first met my chief instructor (7th dan), I bowed and called him "sir" and he just laughed at me and said "Dont bow and just call me by my first name, we dont go in for all that stuff, we are all equal, I have just been training longer and your opinion is just as valid as mine or anyone else in this room". I really respected him for that.

 

[dancingalone]

However, I notice no one is protesting the use of high level Japanese martial arts titles like Kyoshi and Shihan for similarly ranked KMA practitioners, 1st Dan and above. Why is that? Why do we protest over the use of titles in one case, and not the other? Why aren't people outraged at the use of Kyoshi for an assistant instructor who is 1st Dan?

I personally haven't heard of any Korean martist artist, 1st dan or otherwise, using the kyoshi title. That said, I would think what you state would be a breach in decorum.

Kyoshi as you know is a high form of teaching recognition. It would be very egregious for a beginner black belt to call himself one or for others to use the same title in connection to him. Many master level instructors who have earned kyoshi recognition don't even use the title except in formal correspondence. They call themselves sensei mostly.

 

[andyjeffries]

I personally haven't heard of any Korean martist artist, 1st dan or otherwise, using the kyoshi title. That said, I would think what you state would be a breach in decorum.

Kyoshi as you know is a high form of teaching recognition. It would be very egregious for a beginner black belt to call himself one or for others to use the same title in connection to him. Many master level instructors who have earned kyoshi recognition don't even use the title except in formal correspondence. They call themselves sensei mostly.

Korean first dans (and higher grades referring to lower dans) quite commonly use Kyosa (which is the same hanja). No breach in decorum or egregiousness...

 

[Archtkd]

So true. I liken it to the reality tv show "undercover boss". Usually when the boss actually comes and rubs shoulders with the 'simple folk' they realise just how out of touch they are with what is actually going on. I learn a hell of a lot more about tkd talking to "simple folk" than I do reading 'papers' by the heirachy. People get way too caught up in the whole "senior" , "junior" thing. I remember when I first met my chief instructor (7th dan), I bowed and called him "sir" and he just laughed at me and said "Dont bow and just call me by my first name, we dont go in for all that stuff, we are all equal, I have just been training longer and your opinion is just as valid as mine or anyone else in this room". I really respected him for that.

That''s not exactly what I was saying and I hope that other readers don't get the impression that I think the seniors in question are out of touch and don't know what's going on. It's quite the opposite. They are way ahead and I'm just trying to respectfully nudge them to slow down a little and communicate in ways that the message can be understood by all and sundry.

 

[dancingalone]

Korean first dans (and higher grades referring to lower dans) quite commonly use Kyosa (which is the same hanja). No breach in decorum or egregiousness...

But does it mean the same thing contextually or culturally as calling someone Kyoshi if they practice a Japanese MA? I think no. What do you say?