Evolution in taekwondo

[msmitht]

Master southwick,
Been a while since chicago. I went to korea for the REAL kkw sa bum course in 2009; Very different.
Congrats on your success btw.
Questions for you:
1. Do you know if this will be a mandatory new dobok? Just for poomsae or will the kkw tkd academy enforce it as well? (I know that the wtf & kkw do not always agree( I.e. poomsae))
2. What does gm Yoon think about it?
3. Do tou think david will make the usat enforce the new dobok?
4. The new dan ranking calls for 1-3rd dan as sa bum, 4-6 as sook sa sa bum and kwang jang for 7-9th. My korean friends call a school owner kwang jang nim, a reference to the head of a school. While I refuse to let any of my students call me this, is it correct? I am asking because of your knowledge of the language.
Ty in advance.

 

[puunui]

4. The new dan ranking calls for 1-3rd dan as sa bum, 4-6 as sook sa sa bum and kwang jang for 7-9th.

That's not what the new dan ranking calls for. 4-6 Dan is Jido Sabum (like jidoja yunsuwon) and 7-9 dan is dae sabum. And I think you mean soo suk instead of sooksa, and kwan jang instead of kwangjang. The kwan in kwan jang is the same character as Kwan, like jidokwan, moo duk kwan, etc.

 

[andyjeffries]

That's not what the new dan ranking calls for. 4-6 Dan is Jido Sabum (like jidoja yunsuwon) and 7-9 dan is dae sabum. And I think you mean soo suk instead of sooksa, and kwan jang instead of kwangjang. The kwan in kwan jang is the same character as Kwan, like jidokwan, moo duk kwan, etc.

And I think Kwanjang is now clearer as "Head of School" as Grandmaster is Daesabum. Kwanjang was often (mis-)used as Grandmaster in the past.

 

[MSUTKD]

Questions for you:
1. Do you know if this will be a mandatory new dobok? Just for poomsae or will the kkw tkd academy enforce it as well? (I know that the wtf & kkw do not always agree( I.e. poomsae))
2. What does gm Yoon think about it?
3. Do tou think david will make the usat enforce the new dobok?
4. The new dan ranking calls for 1-3rd dan as sa bum, 4-6 as sook sa sa bum and kwang jang for 7-9th. My korean friends call a school owner kwang jang nim, a reference to the head of a school. While I refuse to let any of my students call me this, is it correct? I am asking because of your knowledge of the language.
Ty in advance.

Mr. Smith,

Even though that instructor course was crap, meeting you and the others was AWESOME!

1. They want Taekwondo to get a facelift. If you really dig you can see what is behind this. Right now they are going to showcase this at the Poomsae World's. There will be and is resistance but with change there always is. I would be more concerned with their motif for changing. The history that the Taekwondo seniors came up with is a good example, it was fabricated. Their reasons however might be understood if you lived through occupation. Doing the wrong thing, for whatever reason is bad. This appears to be a push Taekwondo wide (WTF and Kukkiwon). It is politics and ego that have keep the WTF and Kukkiwon from really working together, maybe they are starting too. (save comments about the WTF/Kukkiwon for some other thread please)

2. I do not know what some of the old masters think but I will ask them, in person, next month. I am sure you will get a mix.

3. I do not think that the USAT really cares about the uniform we wear for poomsae but, some of the US Poomsae coordinators might and they are the ones who will make it happen if it does. It will take a few years here, heck we still use paper scoring in poomsae, lol.

4. This has always been a little misunderstood. Usually when you get 4th dan you are called sabum, that hanja means "teacher of teachers", which is why it fit for someone who was now allowed to promote someone to yudanja, holder of black belt. I will PM you the translations for these new terms, they just simplified it nicely.

As I titled this thread evolution, I believe it is. I may not like it personally but in a way this is going to help well, take out the trash. More to come on that later too!

 

[terryl965]

Master Southwick let me ask this of you, How do you see this as helping?

What do you mean take out the trash?

What steps are being done to bring the WTF and KKW together?

Last thing will this be a means to those instructors out there looking for more legitimate instructor or seniors to help guide them though there journey? I mean we have so many mis-guided people out there including me. Sometimes I feel I am in a ship all by myself when it comes to getting more in depth knowledge of my art. So many peole have so many different takes on events, training and interpitation of the art/sport?

 

[MSUTKD]

Terry,

Get on the mat and train, that is the only course here. There are those people that talk and profess and those that do, period. The people I work with, train with and compete with are all doers not talkers. I am on the mat with 8th dans and 7th dans that make me feel like a white belt, they sir are doers. They can kick, punch and SHOW you what Taekwondo is. Your training and work ethic has nothing to do with the Kukkiwon, WTF and USAT. Go practice your side kick, that is what I am going to do today.

 

[MSUTKD]

This is what I believe the hanja, if there is any, lol, and meaning to be. I could really be wrong here and perhaps Master Cole can ask his house guest if I am actually learning to get this right.

지도사범 (指導師範)
Jido sabum – Leader or Guiding Teacher of Teachers
지 (指) - Pointing
도 (導) - Guide
사 (師) - Teacher
범 (範) - Pattern


대사범 (大師範)
Dae sabum – Greater Teacher of Teachers
대 (大) - Greater
사 (師) - Teacher
범 (範) - Pattern

 

[puunui]

And I think Kwanjang is now clearer as "Head of School" as Grandmaster is Daesabum. Kwanjang was often (mis-)used as Grandmaster in the past.

Jido sabum and Dae sabum are new terms. I never heard those used before. In Hapkido, Chong Kwan Jang was used for Grandmaster (this was GM Ji's title in the KHA) and Kwan Jang was considered Master. Titles were not automatic though, and there was a separate KHA Certificate of Qualification given for Sabum, Kwan Jang, etc. in addition to dan rank.

 

[puunui]

I would be more concerned with their motif for changing. The history that the Taekwondo seniors came up with is a good example, it was fabricated. Their reasons however might be understood if you lived through occupation. Doing the wrong thing, for whatever reason is bad.

Whenever I read statement like this, that history was "fabricated", it raises a very large red flag for me, because it usually means that the person making such a statement, especially a Taekwondoin, did not take the time to understand what was being said, why and in what context. Usually the process goes like this: "Taekwondo comes from karate, not Taekkyon, Subak or the Hwa Rang. Therefore any history quoting these sources is a lie." The funny thing is, if you speak with any of the "Taekwondo seniors", they will all tell you that their teachers all learned Karate in Japan. That is no big secret.

But assume that is true, which it is, that the Taekwondo pioneers learned from people who studied Karate in Japan. How do you then explain the emphasis on kicking in not only Taekwondo, but Hapkido and other Korean Martial Arts as well? Where did that come from? Karate? Japan? I think not. Did the emphasis on kicking have something to do with living through the Japanese Occupation? Again, I think not. So where did it come from?

But over and above that, the red flag for me is not so much the issue of historical accuracy of the position stated above, but more so the attitude and stance taken with respect to one's seniors. Once you start thinking of your seniors as liars, it sets in motion a chain reaction of other negative attitudes (such as ingratitude) towards not only those seniors, but all seniors in general.

 

[Makalakumu]

Whenever I read statement like this, that history was "fabricated", it raises a very large red flag for me, because it usually means that the person making such a statement, especially a Taekwondoin, did not take the time to understand what was being said, why and in what context. Usually the process goes like this: "Taekwondo comes from karate, not Taekkyon, Subak or the Hwa Rang. Therefore any history quoting these sources is a lie." The funny thing is, if you speak with any of the "Taekwondo seniors", they will all tell you that their teachers all learned Karate in Japan. That is no big secret.

But assume that is true, which it is, that the Taekwondo pioneers learned from people who studied Karate in Japan. How do you then explain the emphasis on kicking in not only Taekwondo, but Hapkido and other Korean Martial Arts as well? Where did that come from? Karate? Japan? I think not. Did the emphasis on kicking have something to do with living through the Japanese Occupation? Again, I think not. So where did it come from?

But over and above that, the red flag for me is not so much the issue of historical accuracy of the position stated above, but more so the attitude and stance taken with respect to one's seniors. Once you start thinking of your seniors as liars, it sets in motion a chain reaction of other negative attitudes (such as ingratitude) towards not only those seniors, but all seniors in general.

I don't know about that. I feel a great sense of gratitude toward my seniors because they provided a venue for me to practice martial arts. Maybe I would have found a different art to practice, but I wouldn't have had the same gifted instructors I did have in that circumstance. That said, the history of our art was misrepresented in the case of my KMA lineage.

http://www.usadojo.com/articles/tang-soo-do-forms.htm

I once asked that question directly of Hwang Kee's son, Hwang Hyun Chu], director of the United States Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation. The answer was the standard one: "My father brought [them] back from China." I pressed the point, saying that this simply could not be true. The forms were not Chinese; they were Okinawan in origin. The fact that this was common knowledge to students of Japanese and Okinawan karate had led to more than one rumor that Hwang Kee had traveled to Japan or Okinawa and learned the forms there. One myth even claimed that he had spent a few months in Okinawa studying shorin-ryu and goju-ryu karate. When I pursued the issue, Hwang Hyun Chul politely thanked me for calling and said good-bye.

Some people did misrepresent the history. Not everyone, but some people really did do it.

 

[terrylamar]

Does anyone know where these uniforms can be purchased? There is conntact information on their website for the Overseas Marketing Manager with a Retail Partner listed for New York as Olivia Kim, but with no conntact information.

I might want to purchase one uniform for myself. The more I look at it, the more it grows on me.

 

[puunui]

I don't know about that. I feel a great sense of gratitude toward my seniors because they provided a venue for me to practice martial arts. Maybe I would have found a different art to practice, but I wouldn't have had the same gifted instructors I did have in that circumstance. That said, the history of our art was misrepresented in the case of my KMA lineage.

http://www.usadojo.com/articles/tang-soo-do-forms.htm

Some people did misrepresent the history. Not everyone, but some people really did do it.

Maybe Master HC Hwang simply doesn't know. He wasn't training when his father was learning those forms from GM HYUN Jong Myun at the Seoul Station where they both worked during the mid 1940's.

 

[MSUTKD]

Whenever I read statement like this, that history was "fabricated", it raises a very large red flag for me, because it usually means that the person making such a statement, especially a Taekwondoin, did not take the time to understand what was being said, why and in what context. Usually the process goes like this: "Taekwondo comes from karate, not Taekkyon, Subak or the Hwa Rang. Therefore any history quoting these sources is a lie." The funny thing is, if you speak with any of the "Taekwondo seniors", they will all tell you that their teachers all learned Karate in Japan. That is no big secret.

But assume that is true, which it is, that the Taekwondo pioneers learned from people who studied Karate in Japan. How do you then explain the emphasis on kicking in not only Taekwondo, but Hapkido and other Korean Martial Arts as well? Where did that come from? Karate? Japan? I think not. Did the emphasis on kicking have something to do with living through the Japanese Occupation? Again, I think not. So where did it come from?

But over and above that, the red flag for me is not so much the issue of historical accuracy of the position stated above, but more so the attitude and stance taken with respect to one's seniors. Once you start thinking of your seniors as liars, it sets in motion a chain reaction of other negative attitudes (such as ingratitude) towards not only those seniors, but all seniors in general.

Forgive me sir but ad nauseum. Hopefully back to evolution!

 

[puunui]

Forgive me sir but ad nauseum. Hopefully back to evolution!

Maybe to you but not to others who for decades have been doing the work you just started doing only recently. I would think you would be interested in historical discussion, given what you wrote above. And this is about evolution; I am responding to a post you wrote.

 

[MSUTKD]

Maybe to you but not to others who for decades have been doing the work you just started doing only recently. I would think you would be interested in historical discussion, given what you wrote above. And this is about evolution; I am responding to a post you wrote.

Okay, I will "feed the trolls" so to speak. I may have only 30 some years in and about 20 of real research but I try. Only the Chinese is new, 2005 I think, but language is not. Facts are not facts just because they are in a book or just because somebody says it is true, I know that you understand that (maybe more than most here because of your job). The difference here is that I am trying to understand and actually learn and share. I am not I interested in regurgitation of dogma but if as a Taekwondo person you would like to add constructive insight I would be honored to listen and respond.

 

[terryl965]

Terry,

Get on the mat and train, that is the only course here. There are those people that talk and profess and those that do, period. The people I work with, train with and compete with are all doers not talkers. I am on the mat with 8th dans and 7th dans that make me feel like a white belt, they sir are doers. They can kick, punch and SHOW you what Taekwondo is. Your training and work ethic has nothing to do with the Kukkiwon, WTF and USAT. Go practice your side kick, that is what I am going to do today.

I do train everyday with my team and my TKD family.

 

[MSUTKD]

I know you do Terry. That was meant to be motivational for all not a specific statement toward you sir.

 

[terryl965]

I know you do Terry. That was meant to be motivational for all not a specific statement toward you sir.

I know sir and I respect you and everything you have to say.

 

[puunui]

I am not I interested in regurgitation of dogma but if as a Taekwondo person you would like to add constructive insight I would be honored to listen and respond.

You first. What did you mean when you said that our Taekwondo history is a lie? And what is the factual basis of your statement?

 

[Makalakumu]

Maybe Master HC Hwang simply doesn't know. He wasn't training when his father was learning those forms from GM HYUN Jong Myun at the Seoul Station where they both worked during the mid 1940's.

That might be the case. I have never met, Master HC Hwang. I don't know him or know of his character. I only know what my seniors have said, about discussions they have had on the matter, and their observations. Based on those data points, the story really does become clear. Our former Federation wanted to highlight the Chinese origins of the art and even went so far as to say that Hwang Kee learned the hyung he taught in China. I don't know if you know Master Jay S. Penfil. He was a member of this board and is very knowledgeable about this. He trained with Master C.I. Kim and was promoted to chil dan. He knew everyone involved in the process of obfuscation and discovery, including the person who wrote the linked article, Master John Hancock. When it comes to this matter, if you really want to get into the gory details, contact him.

So, yeah, I don't think this is an all or nothing game. Some of the old masters were very open about their lineage and others were not...at least not until more recent times.