"Every cop should learn BJj" Do you agree?

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes. Please explain why a 2 week program is not part of the pros and cons factor when compared to an ongoing program.

Because it's not "BJJ vs. DT" you're really talking about. It's "2-weeks vs ongoing". And then you have the gall to blame the instructors and call their integrity into question, when they do NOT get to make that call.

Nobody here has said 2 weeks was ideal. You've been arguing as if they've said that. Which is complete crap.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Sorry. Haven't finished. Just finding more YouTube videos.

And so because of this whole closed shop isolated approach you don't get anywhere near the depth of talent that you would from an open accountable approach.

Now I don't do kung fu in China. But it is pretty obvious this guys system needs work.

I don't do police DT in America but it is obvious your system needs work.

Because I can look at the results.

Do you not see what you just did. You took a video of one guy, and said "his system needs work" (a reasonable statement). Then you took videos of several different systems (some not even actual, official DT, apparently) and said to someone in DT, "Your system needs work."

That's like me looking at a bunch of Karate and TKD videos and telling some savate guy his system clearly needs work. You've lost it, mate.

 

[drop bear]

Because it's not "BJJ vs. DT" you're really talking about. It's "2-weeks vs ongoing". And then you have the gall to blame the instructors and call their integrity into question, when they do NOT get to make that call.

Nobody here has said 2 weeks was ideal. You've been arguing as if they've said that. Which is complete crap.

Two weeks is enough time to protect departments from liability.

Using a system designed to protect departments from liability.

For the purpose these courses are designed for. Two weeks is ideal. Because nobody actually needs to have usable skills so long as there is protection from liability.

It is not my fault instructors can't have more time or teach better skills. All I can direct people to do is go to where instructors do have more time and can teach better skills.

I am not suggesting I could teach cops in two weeks. If someone came to me and asked. I would direct them to a qualified expert in an ongoing system. Because that will give that person the best chance.

If you can't build a car with breaks. Don't build the car.

 

[drop bear]

Do you not see what you just did. You took a video of one guy, and said "his system needs work" (a reasonable statement). Then you took videos of several different systems (some not even actual, official DT, apparently) and said to someone in DT, "Your system needs work."

That's like me looking at a bunch of Karate and TKD videos and telling some savate guy his system clearly needs work. You've lost it, mate.

Same way I would evaluate psychic powers.

So Barry has psychic powers. Barry argues he helps millions of people.

I tell Barry that his powers are not real. Barry says I can't comment because I am not psychic.

I ask Barry for evidence and he says that he has helped all these people it is evidence.

I show a YouTube video of psychic powers being debunked. Barry says that psychic wasn't a real psychic.

Does Barry have a video of his powers? No silly not everything that happens occurs on YouTube.

I say Barry might be fleecing people. Barry takes the moral high ground.

I tell people to do BJJ because at least we know it works.

 

[ballen0351]

I ask Barry for evidence and he says that he has helped all these people it is evidence.

Except the evidence is there. Multiple Govt. Agencies keep stats on arrest numbers, use of force numbers, line of duty deaths, suspect deaths. They are long and boring reports sometimes 100s of pages long. I'm not going to post a 150-page report from the FBI on use of force numbers on this site. Not, because its a "secret" but because it's already out there for anyone to go look for and read so there is no need and quite frankly its pretty boring. I could post 1000's of hours of videos from different TV Shows like COPS and LIVE PD where they followed around cops for years and you could watch them and see 1000's of clips of officers using force effectively but why? What's the point? What's it prove?
Point is the information is out there its not my responsibility to find it for you. We both know you have no real interest in seeing the data since it doesn't fit your narrative.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Two weeks is enough time to protect departments from liability.

Using a system designed to protect departments from liability.

For the purpose these courses are designed for. Two weeks is ideal. Because nobody actually needs to have usable skills so long as there is protection from liability.

It is not my fault instructors can't have more time or teach better skills. All I can direct people to do is go to where instructors do have more time and can teach better skills.

I am not suggesting I could teach cops in two weeks. If someone came to me and asked. I would direct them to a qualified expert in an ongoing system. Because that will give that person the best chance.

If you can't build a car with breaks. Don't build the car.

You're just ignoring that the 2 weeks actually has some reasonable results. Your argument is wandering and shifting. I think we're done here.

 

[ballen0351]

You're just ignoring that the 2 weeks actually has some reasonable results. Your argument is wandering and shifting. I think we're done here.

If it's not on youtube it doesn't count.

 

[drop bear]

You're just ignoring that the 2 weeks actually has some reasonable results. Your argument is wandering and shifting. I think we're done here.

Ok. What results?

Let's compare them to kemosabe results from his training.

Did everyone manage to perform their jobs after his human weapon course?

Is that the effect of the training?

 

[drop bear]

Except the evidence is there. Multiple Govt. Agencies keep stats on arrest numbers, use of force numbers, line of duty deaths, suspect deaths. They are long and boring reports sometimes 100s of pages long. I'm not going to post a 150-page report from the FBI on use of force numbers on this site. Not, because its a "secret" but because it's already out there for anyone to go look for and read so there is no need and quite frankly its pretty boring. I could post 1000's of hours of videos from different TV Shows like COPS and LIVE PD where they followed around cops for years and you could watch them and see 1000's of clips of officers using force effectively but why? What's the point? What's it prove?
Point is the information is out there its not my responsibility to find it for you. We both know you have no real interest in seeing the data since it doesn't fit your narrative.

Ok. I put it to you they would pretty much use force effectively anyway.

You can't just say police are using a method to subdue criminals.

You have to show it is your method.

 

[drop bear]

If it's not on youtube it doesn't count.

If it is on YouTube it does count though.

Is there any DT going on there?

 

[jks9199]

DT/CT is not a " system. " The best programs combine principles from one or more martial systems in a framework that it is hoped serves the combined purpose of giving an officer the tools to survive, to detain a subject at any level of resistance without being excessive force, to balance tne likelihood of injury against the likelihood of obtaining effective control, to meet liability standards, and to be taught and retained in the time allotted and in a way that works during an adrenal dump. Not exactly an easy bill of specifics there, huh?

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[jks9199]

DT/CT is not a " system. " The best programs combine principles from one or more martial systems in a framework that it is hoped serves the combined purpose of giving an officer the tools to survive, to detain a subject at any level of resistance without being excessive force, to balance tne likelihood of injury against the likelihood of obtaining effective control, to meet liability standards, and to be taught and retained in the time allotted and in a way that works during an adrenal dump. Not exactly an easy bill of specifics there, huh?

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Oh... and too add to the complexity, I failed to mention that, in most basic academies, "DT" training time ends up including police-specific areas like how to search a building or a person, properly applying handcuffs, using less lethal tools like batons, pepper spray, and Tasers... and more.

 

[Buka]

That's me with my Sargent, Lieutenant, Section Head and the guy who helped me design our DT program back in the day. And dare I say it... you won't find that on youtube, either.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That's me with my Sargent, Lieutenant, Section Head and the guy who helped me design our DT program back in the day. And dare I say it... you won't find that on youtube, either.

View attachment 21988

Ugly buncha SOB's. Sounds like good guys.

 

[drop bear]

DT/CT is not a " system. " The best programs combine principles from one or more martial systems in a framework that it is hoped serves the combined purpose of giving an officer the tools to survive, to detain a subject at any level of resistance without being excessive force, to balance tne likelihood of injury against the likelihood of obtaining effective control, to meet liability standards, and to be taught and retained in the time allotted and in a way that works during an adrenal dump. Not exactly an easy bill of specifics there, huh?

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And the worst are 70s style Aikido crappling. That combine none of those specifics. And only serve to to protect departments from litigation and serve the ego of the instructors themselves at the cost of officer saftey.

Terrible.
Dangerous.
And insulting.

How do you tell the difference?

 

[Buka]

If it is on YouTube it does count though.

Is there any DT going on there?

Yes, quite a bit, actually.

 

[Hanzou]

That's me with my Sargent, Lieutenant, Section Head and the guy who helped me design our DT program back in the day. And dare I say it... you won't find that on youtube, either.

View attachment 21988

Show off.

 

[CB Jones]

That's me with my Sargent, Lieutenant, Section Head and the guy who helped me design our DT program back in the day. And dare I say it... you won't find that on youtube, either.

View attachment 21988

That guy in the middle should think about training bjj

 

[PhotonGuy]

Interesting article and video about a firefighter who was shot and killed. The video in the article makes the argument that because of Bjj's ground fighting expertise they can control suspects better and help avoid cops losing control and getting accidently shot or stabbed. I would be very interested in hearing other people's thoughts on this.

Fatal Shooting of Firefighter: Why Every Cop Should Train BJJ

A cop could learn some of the basics of BJJ but lots of cops I believe work long hours and don't have much time to devote to a martial art. I read an article in a magazine once where an officer said he doesn't have the time to get into a weightlifting program because he works such long hours.

 

[TMA17]

A cop could learn some of the basics of BJJ but lots of cops I believe work long hours and don't have much time to devote to a martial art. I read an article in a magazine once where an officer said he doesn't have the time to get into a weightlifting program because he works such long hours.

Yeah time is a big part of all this martial arts banter. I can barely go 2x a week.