"Every cop should learn BJj" Do you agree?

[Gerry Seymour]

Nope. That is why you don't get 2 week BJJ programs.

Ok. Provided the instructor has a real mechanical grasp on the technique. (And that isn't guaranteed. And if he doesn't guys who do understand the mechanics are not able to imput)

They compromise on time.

And therefore compromise on techniques that take time to learn. So because they have easy to apply but potentially no longer high percentage techniques to work from they have to manufacture wins within the training.

So things like sparring go out the window. And they start using combat scenarios.

All of this make any approximation of how a real fight works goes pretty much out the window.

But they also set the standard of what is expected in a real fight. So restraint and control is expected to look like the training. But it doesn't because they are not training realistically.


So this is supposed to work in a fight.

If it doesn't work. Then you are doing it wrong.

But you're missing the issue. You're comparing long-term training in BJJ to the quick results from DT. They are not comparable. Both together is better than either alone.

2 weeks is current reality most places. It just is. Wishing it weren't doesn't do anybody any good. DT accomplishes quite a lot in that time.

As for the rest, that's still more suppositions. Yes, there will be some scenario training with established limits. That's an efficient way to make sure you cover what's more common, without getting dragged off into wild scenarios by folks who want to find out every "what if". I know for a fact that some DT involves actual sparring. How common is that? Dunno. I'm sure it's not very extensive even in those programs that have it, because there's such limited time to work with. But it does happen.

So, is long-term training in BJJ (on top of DT) better than just short-time DT? Hell yes. But that's not BJJ being superior. Long-term DT - where it's backed by actual experience and uses good information and feedback - would also be much better than short-time DT.

 

[drop bear]

But you're missing the issue. You're comparing long-term training in BJJ to the quick results from DT. They are not comparable. Both together is better than either alone.

Why aren't they comparable?

 

[drop bear]

As for the rest, that's still more suppositions.

I have shown videos of DT training that show the functionally bad training model. I am supposing.

There is no counter evidence so far.

 

[drop bear]

So, is long-term training in BJJ (on top of DT) better than just short-time DT? Hell yes. But that's not BJJ being superior. Long-term DT - where it's backed by actual experience and uses good information and feedback - would also be much better than short-time DT.

Where does this exist?

 

[Buka]

I would have liked to have seen this whole scene in it's entirety. I would have also liked to have seen when backup arrived.

Every kind of training you have helps you. Bu as someone who trains BJJ, Defensive Tactics and works for a living in Law Enforcement, perhaps I'm jaded.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Why aren't they comparable?

You seriously can't see that?

Is long-term training in BJJ better than a couple of weeks?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I have shown videos of DT training that show the functionally bad training model. I am supposing.

There is no counter evidence so far.

The counter evidence is all the cops who do their jobs successfully when things go physical.

As for the videos you posted, some do not look (to me) to be official DT training - those don't usually have any reason for advertising, and some of those were clearly advertising videos. As for any that actually were DT, again, we're back to the issue of you lumping literally thousands of different systems into a single pot, and labeling them according to those videos. Does a video of someone being ill-trained in Taekwondo show that all martial arts are ill-trained? Does it even show that all TKD is ill-trained??

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Where does this exist?

I'm not aware anywhere it exists.

 

[ballen0351]

Nope. That is why you don't get 2 week BJJ programs.
.

Well then now you see the real problem.
Thankfully for what it is better or worse what we teach now over two weeks is working MOST of the time.
Is it the best solution? Nope.
Would I love to spend several months training new officers in DT? Sure.
BUT we get a total of 6 to 7 months here to train all aspects of law enforcement, not just 1 topic. It already takes over a year from the time someone initially applies to be a police officer too when they are finally on the street by themselves doing the job we pay them for, and that's if everything goes smooth. Telling PD's, Mayors, County Councils, Police Chiefs we need to add a few more months to the training for DT wouldn't fly mainly because what they are taught now is working. So we can't justify the need.

Does it ALWAYS work all the time? Nope, you have found a few videos online.
Does anything work 100%? Nope.

You can argue until your blue in the face that BJJ is the best thing for PD's and even if you were right it won't change the fact that we only get 2 weeks to train in DT. Part of the 2 weeks has to be spent on other things besides pure self-defense things like handcuffing techniques and classroom time describing the Use of Force continuum, How to move from hands to OC or Taser or Baton etc.

SO sure BJJ is fine for people to learn on their own if they want. As I've said numerous times anything is better than nothing.

Given my choice, if I were to take a specific Art to make a Police DT course out of I would use Judo (However I fully admit I don't know much about a lot of other styles so there may be something even better). I think the takedowns are more important than the ground game and Judo has better takedowns. I trained for about 18 months at a local Judo Dojo and was able to use two or three simple takedowns multiple times very effectively on the street. So much so I added 2 of them to my DT course I teach and submitted them to the review board to be added to the official program. One of them was added to the program the other was deemed to have a higher risk of injury to the suspect so it wasn't added. I think some very basic ground grappling is fine since most people don't have any training in anything (Which may also be why 2 weeks of DT works most of the time because most suspects have no training). Which is why any advanced training in BJJ wouldn't really be needed. Nothing wrong with it but for the most part it's unnecessary.

SO feel free to find 10 more videos of cops doing a poor job with DT. It won't change the real problem which is time....

 

[Buka]

When a person has never actually trained in something, and said person has never actually worked in the field being discussed, and said person has never set foot in the part of the world being talked about....

Darn good thing there's youtube. It has become the mother of all keyboard warriors.

 

[drop bear]

You seriously can't see that?

Is long-term training in BJJ better than a couple of weeks?

Yes. Please explain why a 2 week program is not part of the pros and cons factor when compared to an ongoing program.

 

[drop bear]

Well then now you see the real problem.
Thankfully for what it is better or worse what we teach now over two weeks is working MOST of the time.
Is it the best solution? Nope.
Would I love to spend several months training new officers in DT? Sure.
BUT we get a total of 6 to 7 months here to train all aspects of law enforcement, not just 1 topic. It already takes over a year from the time someone initially applies to be a police officer too when they are finally on the street by themselves doing the job we pay them for, and that's if everything goes smooth. Telling PD's, Mayors, County Councils, Police Chiefs we need to add a few more months to the training for DT wouldn't fly mainly because what they are taught now is working. So we can't justify the need.

Does it ALWAYS work all the time? Nope, you have found a few videos online.
Does anything work 100%? Nope.

You can argue until your blue in the face that BJJ is the best thing for PD's and even if you were right it won't change the fact that we only get 2 weeks to train in DT. Part of the 2 weeks has to be spent on other things besides pure self-defense things like handcuffing techniques and classroom time describing the Use of Force continuum, How to move from hands to OC or Taser or Baton etc.

SO sure BJJ is fine for people to learn on their own if they want. As I've said numerous times anything is better than nothing.

Given my choice, if I were to take a specific Art to make a Police DT course out of I would use Judo (However I fully admit I don't know much about a lot of other styles so there may be something even better). I think the takedowns are more important than the ground game and Judo has better takedowns. I trained for about 18 months at a local Judo Dojo and was able to use two or three simple takedowns multiple times very effectively on the street. So much so I added 2 of them to my DT course I teach and submitted them to the review board to be added to the official program. One of them was added to the program the other was deemed to have a higher risk of injury to the suspect so it wasn't added. I think some very basic ground grappling is fine since most people don't have any training in anything (Which may also be why 2 weeks of DT works most of the time because most suspects have no training). Which is why any advanced training in BJJ wouldn't really be needed. Nothing wrong with it but for the most part it's unnecessary.

SO feel free to find 10 more videos of cops doing a poor job with DT. It won't change the real problem which is time....

I use time because it is the most cut and dried point. It isn't just time. There is some seriously impractical stuff being practiced by some seriously unqualified guys.

And because DT basically won't show its system or show its instructors show they have the depth of knowledge.

Nobody will know which system works and which system doesn't until they go out, find a bad guy and fight him.

And so that specifically avoids all this ducking and diving that gets done.

And of course then DT instructors can say their special system that nobody can see is specifically designed for police in America to handle the specific American criminals.

And so basic good grappling doesn't factor.

You are creating the same circumstance as these Chinese Kung fu masters. Who have their secret systems. Who support their isolationist views and who reap the benifits of training geared to the whims of the instructor rather than the needs of the system.

 

[ballen0351]

I use time because it is the most cut and dried point. It isn't just time. There is some seriously impractical stuff being practiced by some seriously unqualified guys.

And because DT basically won't show its system or show its instructors show they have the depth of knowledge.

Nobody will know which system works and which system doesn't until they go out, find a bad guy and fight him.

And so that specifically avoids all this ducking and diving that gets done.

And of course then DT instructors can say their special system that nobody can see is specifically designed for police in America to handle the specific American criminals.

And so basic good grappling doesn't factor.

You are creating the same circumstance as these Chinese Kung fu masters. Who have their secret systems. Who support their isolationist views and who reap the benifits of training geared to the whims of the instructor rather than the needs of the system.

OK You are right we are all wrong. Have a great day

 

[drop bear]

OK You are right we are all wrong. Have a great day

Sorry. Haven't finished. Just finding more YouTube videos.

And so because of this whole closed shop isolated approach you don't get anywhere near the depth of talent that you would from an open accountable approach.

Now I don't do kung fu in China. But it is pretty obvious this guys system needs work.

I don't do police DT in America but it is obvious your system needs work.

Because I can look at the results.

 

[ballen0351]

Sorry. Haven't finished. Just finding more YouTube videos.

And so because of this whole closed shop isolated approach you don't get anywhere near the depth of talent that you would from an open accountable approach.

Now I don't do kung fu in China. But it is pretty obvious this guys system needs work.

I don't do police DT in America but it is obvious your system needs work.

Because I can look at the results.

OK Thanks, I'll make sure to pass this along to the guys that do this every day and evaluate it all the time. Do you have contact info I'm sure they would love to hear your opinion?

 

[drop bear]

The counter evidence is all the cops who do their jobs successfully when things go physical.

As for the videos you posted, some do not look (to me) to be official DT training - those don't usually have any reason for advertising, and some of those were clearly advertising videos. As for any that actually were DT, again, we're back to the issue of you lumping literally thousands of different systems into a single pot, and labeling them according to those videos. Does a video of someone being ill-trained in Taekwondo show that all martial arts are ill-trained? Does it even show that all TKD is ill-trained??

I am making a point and then supporting that point with evidence.

So police cannot control people well and then escalate.
(shows video)

police are not getting adequate training
(shows video)

police do not have a high opinion of DT.
(shows video)

DT training can be impractical
(shows video)

police can use BJJ to effectively restrain criminals in America. (Because the country is important)

(Shows video)

Now I have said dropping scumbags to the deck and restraining them is pretty much the same in every profession that does it in every part of the world.

(And I can show video of that if you want as well.)

Apparently there are specific conditions that validate this non system. That nobody can show video of.

If I wanted to suggest TKD is any good. I will go and show video of good TKD. and then explain why that particular TKD produces better results. I would certainly not try to tell you that fighting in Korea is so different that they need a specific system.

 

[drop bear]

OK Thanks, I'll make sure to pass this along to the guys that do this every day and evaluate it all the time. Do you have contact info I'm sure they would love to hear your opinion?

Don't worry. They don't want external opinions. They are happy with the system. And happy with the results.

And there is plenty of BJJ out there if police want to learn a usable skill.

 

[ballen0351]

Don't worry. They don't want external opinions. They are happy with the system. And happy with the results.

And there is plenty of BJJ out there if police want to learn a usable skill.

And you still haven't addressed the biggest issue......TIME. We get 2 weeks that's it no more no less. So once you figure out how to teach a system that is more effective then what we currently have in 2 weeks please let us know.

 

[drop bear]

And you still haven't addressed the biggest issue......TIME. We get 2 weeks that's it no more no less. So once you figure out how to teach a system that is more effective then what we currently have in 2 weeks please let us know.

Two weeks is enough time as a liability buffer.

 

[ballen0351]

Two weeks is enough time as a liability buffer.

Ok more time isnt an option so