Ever heard of Freestyle Nunchaku?

Discussion in 'Weapon Videos' started by thexxx1, Jan 9, 2012.

  1. thexxx1

    thexxx1 Yellow Belt

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    Thats very close to what i originally learned. That is just Okinawan style nunchaku. i started with korean style nunchaku usage. They're clsoe to the same, they have many similarities, but a few slight differences.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2012
  2. clfsean

    clfsean Senior Master

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    What exactly is "nunchaku-do"?? Where are finger flips & neck grips found in kobudo?

    Just curious...
     
  3. thexxx1

    thexxx1 Yellow Belt

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    Nunchaku-do is just that. the art of nunchaku. it's a martial art based solely around using the nunchaku as a weapon.

    The finger flips and neck grips that you can do, apparently that you have in your art, i don't really do them in freestyle because they don't flow well into it. But i was taught them for traditional means. These videos i do are solely freestyle and most of the moves i do don't have much use in a fight. they are training only and are just to improve my skill level. not to be used in a real life situation.

    Real life practical moves are an entirely different story
     
  4. Grenadier

    Grenadier Administrator Staff Member

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    I train in Yamanni Ryu, in both bojutsu and saijutsu. I simply prefer solid weapons in the hand.

    Just as an example of Yamanni Ryu bojutsu (at its pinnacle; I am not even in the same ballpark as Oshiro Sensei... ;) )

     
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  5. clfsean

    clfsean Senior Master

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    Must be something recent then. I don't recognize it coming from Okinawa.

    I practice Traditional Chinese Martial Arts. We don't have nunchaku. And you were doing them in the video, so I was asking where they came from in kobudo... but I got the picture now.
     
  6. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

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    Cool video, thanks! I seem some similarities, but we tend to weld the bo to our hips a bit more for most moves. Neat stuff though; really well executed.
     
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  7. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    Some of us here are pretty traditional minded, meaning we approach our martial training with the notion that we are training a legitimate fighting method. We don't tend to spend time on things that are not directly relevant to our martial training as a legitimate and realistic fighting method, even if we train with weapons that are considered archaic by today's standards. Meaning: even when we train an archaic weapon, we train it as a real weapon, as it was trained ages ago when the weapon was not archaic and still had relevance in society (or as close to that as we are able).

    Tricking and whatnot, the stuff that is fancy and showy and impresses the audience, that "Hollywood" factor stuff, those of us with this traditional mindset don't tend to include in our training.

    that being said, your comment above really is that what you are doing is training and improves your skill level with regards to tricking, and not with regards to the nunchaku as a legitimate weapon. Tricking is not part of the traditional use of the nunchaku as a weapon. So the practice of tricking is not really training with the nunchaku. Tricking may improve your coordination and dexterity with the weapon, and that is relevant to the nunchaku as a weapon in a tangential way, but is not really training and does not really improve your skill level with the nunchuku as a proper weapon. It really only improves your skills with tricking, showboating, or however you want to call it.

    If that is what you are interested in, there's nothing wrong with that, as long as you understand the difference. I'm just giving you a head's-up because a lot of the guys commenting here are coming from a very traditional approach, where tricking and showboating has no place in the training.
     
  8. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    Far in advance of what I can do but it's what I would aspire to do as it's how I also think of using them.
     
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  9. thexxx1

    thexxx1 Yellow Belt

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    In reality, By doing what you call "showboating"

    I'm gaining speed. Fluidity. Control of my weapon. The ability to foresee what my weapon is going to do if knocked out of my hand, or bounces off of whatever i'm striking, trying to tangle, or choke, or whatever i'm doing. And the knowledge otherwise of how my nunchaku is going to move. i know where to hold the weapon to make it do *anything* i want. Not to mention what so ever the fact that it looks cool.
    What more do you want from training with a weapon?
    You may come from traditional means, But what exactly were the first people to ever use nunchaku as a weapon doing?

    The same thing i am. They found something, and -made up- a way to use it. there had been no one teaching those first ever people to use it, they figured it out. and that essentially is all i'm doing.
    Since starting freestyle i have expanded the library of 'proper' movements that i learned in the 6 -7 years training only traditionally from at most 150 moves/defense techniques to 4 or 500 that all would be used in a real situation. and none of them would have ever been taught to me by an instructor. Because traditional instructors never used the weapon the way i did. so they would never know that the weapon would do things that i've found it can do.

    Not to bash any traditional style or training, but by saying my way of doing nunchaku has no place in traning, you might as well be saying that one martial art is better than another. All have their strong and weak points, but they all equally deserve respect just the same.

    With much respect sir, you couldn't really know if my movements would actually work in a fight...because you've never done them.
     
  10. Grenadier

    Grenadier Administrator Staff Member

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    Out of curiosity, do you have something that demonstrates the practical movements? Even if we don't understand your system of nunchaku use, there are a lot of highly experienced eyes here, that know what good mechanics are, and could certainly appreciate a display of solid mechanics. There are, after all, only a limited number of ways a human body can operate optimally.
     
  11. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    Unless you are in the habit of going out carrying your nunchukus and engaging in fights with them, I'd suggest you don't know if your movements would work in a fight either.
     
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  12. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    Right. My turn.

    Hi James, I'm one of those rather traditional persons Flying Crane was referring to earlier.

    Okay, first and foremost, if your intention is to have fun, show off, "look cool", sure, go for it. But nothing I saw in any of those videos is actually going to give you the above results, honestly. The way you learn how a nunchaku reacts when it hits something is not by spinning it around and not hitting things with it, it's by hitting things with it. They really aren't anything alike. All that training is going to develop for you is the ability to spin it around.

    From training with a weapon? I want to learn the tactics that apply to that weapon, it's principles and how to use it, none of which were demonstrated in the clips.

    No, actually. The original masters and developers of were masters of karate, which was developed from systems such as White Crane Kung Fu. They then used the principles and tactics of the established system and applied them to the weaponry at hand, developing systematic approaches to the usage of nunchaku (and other weapons) that could easily be integrated into their existing arts. They really didn't just "make it up and figure it out".

    Besides that, even if they did, they were testing their developments against attacks, ensuring that the methods developed actually worked... which, unless you're going out and finding fights while carrying your nunchaku, you don't have the opportunity to actually "develop" anything other than what you think might work, whether it does or not.

    If you're training for self defence (and I'm not getting into the huge issues with such an idea), then you would actually be looking to limit the number of techniques, not add to them or come up with a huge number. That kinda goes against the basic ideas.

    But to your traditional training, a few things to clear up. Nunchaku-do, from everything I've found, is far from a "traditional" system. It's a modern system with a highly sporting approach, using foam nunchaku. The term literally means "way of nunchaku", rather than "art of the nunchaku", by the way. There is no Korean form (natively), as it's purely a Ryukyu Kobudo/Kobujutsu weapon. So honestly, if you were told it was traditional, or Korean, I'd double check their facts.

    As to "traditional instructors never used the weapon the way I did, so they would never know that the weapon would do things that I've found it can do". Hmm. To be frank, that comes across to me as the naivete of youth... and arrogance, to be honest. Saying that you've discovered things that persons who trained for decades are unaware of is rather arrogant to my mind. You just have a different approach, which means that you are skewed towards what you do, and they're skewed towards proper usage of the weapon. I mean, I've come across a large number of people who do fancy things with swords, saying they've developed a new way of using one... and every one, to a man, would be killed in rather quick fashion if it came down to them depending on their skills. The ones you demonstrate fall into that category as well, by the way. So do the ones I see in the "Nunchaku Do" videos, for the record.

    No, what is being said is that the approach you are showing and discussing is completely removed from usage or training in anything remotely practical for the weapon. What you are doing certainly has value for you, and many others (such as the XMA crowd), but it has no place in training with the weapon as a weapon. While each approach deserves respect, they deserve them in context with what they are intended for. Your approach, as shown here, is completely removed from martial usage, so it needs to be looked at in that context.

    You'd really be surprised how much we can tell from some video... I can quite confidently say that the methods shown would have no place in a fight, unless you were trying to intimidate someone who didn't know what they were looking at, or got a lucky swing. Even then, I'd doubt any follow up.

    To clarify, this isn't an attack on your approach. As I said at the beginning, if your intent is show, flash, etc, all well and good. If it's combative usage, there's a number of issues.
     
  13. thexxx1

    thexxx1 Yellow Belt

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    i don't. I'll make a video though.

    I've been in fights when i had them before, but i know they work because we spar with them (padded gear and foam nunchaku). as well as breaking boards and other things to see the type of power i could get from a strike. For chokes me and my brother who practice jiujitsu do them to to eachother, and roll with nunchaku. I've practiced in numerous ways to see if what i'm doing will work. You may have never been in a fight and side kicked someone, that doesn't mean it wouldn't work if you ever did.
     
  14. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    Chris Parker hit the points very well, so I'll just add a comment or two here and there...

    The above is exactly what I was talking about when I stated that the training you are doing and the skills you are developing are TANGENTIALLY related to the nunchaku as a real weapon. You are gaining a fluidity with the tool as a performance method. That fluidity and comfort with the tool does help in the use of the tool as a real weapon. However, without training the real techniques and strategies of the nunchaku as a weapon, that fluidity and comfort is out of place and has no connection to the weapon. You are developing tricking skills. You are not developing weapon skills. When I watched your video, I saw a lot of flipping and spinning of the tool, but you had no stance, no application of the techniques, no combat relevance. It was a bit like baton twirling. Pretty to watch and an impressive skill in its own right, but not legitimate fighting technique with the tool.

    It's kinda like if I spent a lot of time on a balance beam, working to develop superior balance. Hey, balance is important in the martial arts, so that skill is useful and relevant. However, training on the balance beam is not training martial arts. It's not useless with regard to martial arts, but it's only tangentially related. Balance itself is not martial arts. I still need to train proper martial arts, and then my balance skills can become useful in that context. If I never train proper martial arts, then I simply have good balance without any martial arts.

    to add to what Chris has said, I'll just say that nothing ever springs forth fully formed from a vacuum. Those ancestors who trained the nunchaku as a weapon did so on top of a solid background of quality martial understanding. They didn't just attach two sticks with a cord for the very first time and then "make stuff up."

    I would be interested in knowing how you can define what is "proper" movement with the nunchaku.

    I am actually quite certain that the Okinawan lineage masters of the nunchaku are very much aware of what the nunchaku can and cannot do. Further, they are very very very much aware of what kinds of movement can be done with the nunchaku, that has no relevance to actual fighting. In short, they know exactly what is performance nunchaku vs. fighting nunchaku. From your video and from your comments here, I believe that you do not understand the differences.

    Please understand that I am not attacking you personally, nor am I attacking what you are doing with the nunchaku. I'm just pointing out that there are differences between performance/tricking/showboating, and actual fighting, and I am pointing this out to you to make sure you also understand that issue. I (and the others here) are actually trying to do you a favor by being honest with you on this topic. There are some very experienced, very intelligent, straight-shooting folks here who are willing to tell you the truth. They are doing so to offer you some guidance, not to attack you. I realize some of the things being said are probably not what you want to hear, but that's what a real friend will do: tell you the truth even if it's not what you want to hear.
     
  15. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    Somehow I just knew you were going to say that.
     
  16. Sanke

    Sanke Green Belt

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    Are you in the habit of carrying them around with you? Doesn't seem like the kinda thing a police officer would smile at...
    Also when you say 'fight', are you talking about someone who's come up to you with the intent to harm you, and you've responded with the weapon? Were they armed? Some context would help clarify I think.

    As to the second bold part, sparing and board breaking are an entirely different arena to actual fighting. Honestly, I would go so far as to say that their use in sparing is almost irrelevant when discussing actual combative effectiveness. There's allot of factors that make them quite removed from one another.
     
  17. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    In Virginia -- if you fought someone with nunchaku, odds are good that you'd be facing at least a serious misdemeanor, and probably felony charges.

    Fighting with foam weapons is different than fighting with the real thing. The advent of boxing gloves changed boxing, from the guard position to striking surfaces, even to targets and the cause of knockouts. There's a difference between "you got me!" with foam and "you broke my collarbone" with a real stick or nunchaku, too. I've seen fighters who got used to wearing various protection be completely shocked and amazed by actually being hit...

    What you're doing looks cool. It certainly takes a lot of work, a lot practice, lots of dexterity and coordination, and skill. But it's not combatively effective, any more than close order military drill today is a combat skill. If what you're after is showing combative skill or applications, there are problems. Your stances are unstable and ineffective. You're not looking in the right directions, or at the right things. Like I said -- it's cool looking, and if that's what you're after, great! There are kata or forms that are simply demonstrations to look good or to honor a particular event or memory. But don't mistake that sort of thing for actual fighting any more than you'd think that the maneuvers done by the USMC Silent Drill Team look like what they'd do in a war.
     
  18. thexxx1

    thexxx1 Yellow Belt

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    Yes, i carry them with me a lot. In my state (i have no idea about the laws where anyone else is from) you can carry your weapons if you are 1 not hiding it, meaning you can't carry it under your shirt or any other way so no one can see, and 2 you have to be trained to use the weapon. otherwise when carrying it you have to have it in a bag only to and from a martial arts class. If the situation didn't call for it then it would get me arrested to use the weapon.

    I had my weapon, and got into a fight with some idiot on my street when i walked by his house. He thought that the wrestling he learned in highschool would win against my TaeKwonDo. and punched me in the face. No, i didn't use my weapon in the fight. i was just saying that the chance DOES arise to use them.

    Maybe your sparring is a bit different from what we do in sparring. The only thing we aren't allowed to do is groin strikes. but other than that it is a reasonable way to see how a fight would play out. We stop the match if someone gets hit in a way that the instructors feel would end the fight.
    We use control and don't necessarily hit each other as hard as we possibly could. But it might as well be a real fight seeing as how there are very few restrictions on what we're allowed to do. I admit it's not completely the same as a real fight, or a real situation, and it's controlled. But without going out and starting fights with my nunchaku, i don't see a better way to find if my movements would 'actually work'
     
  19. thexxx1

    thexxx1 Yellow Belt

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    I think this right here is what you aren't understanding
    i AM training in traditional style weapons as well. I'm the weapons instructor at my school. Traditional weapons. These movements you see on my video are additives. They are not entirely what i know how to do. i'm the traditional AND XMA weapons 08, and 09 state champion. I've already said that these movements themselves have no real value in a fight. Its the skill that i gain from them that gives me an advantage over someone who ONLY knows traditional movement. i'm completely aware that i'm only gaining fluidity and speed and that without a solid foundation that means nothing. But i trained in specifically traditional weapons through TaeKwonDo and nunchaku-do for years before i started doing what you see in my video. I was already a black belt when i started freestyle... That's what you guys aren't seeing, i KNOW that my freestyle moves aren't going to win in a fight. But the speed and knowledge of the weapon itself that i get does, when put together with my traditional training.
     
  20. Native

    Native Yellow Belt

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    thexxx1,

    Just an idea that may help. If you have any video of some "traditional" weapons kata, you should post them. I, for one, would love to see the same person be able to perform both equally well.

    Thanks
    -Adam Marcum
     

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