European Duels in the 20th Century

Discussion in 'The European Art of Fencing' started by schlager7, Dec 8, 2009.

  1. Dec 8, 2009 #1
    schlager7

    schlager7 White Belt

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    The European duel of honor to the first blood survived into the 20th century, particularly up until the first world war. A few were captured by early newsreel cameras.


     
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  2. Dec 8, 2009 #2
    celtic_crippler

    celtic_crippler Senior Master

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    Cool!

    I've always been fascinated by fencing.
     
  3. Dec 8, 2009 #3
    lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    Schlager was (and still is, so I've been told) popular in Germany.

    Getting the schmiss was considered absolutely essential for a career in the military. There's a reason that all those old Allied depictions of evil nazis had them with a big ol' nasty scar on their face.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  4. Dec 8, 2009 #4
    Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    Twisted logic surely lol! A scar means you didn't duck and surely aren't as good as those who do!

    schlager is a type of music so am now confused!
     
  5. Dec 8, 2009 #5
    schlager7

    schlager7 White Belt

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    One word can have many meanings. In the US only a few years ago "red" meant communist, socialist or, at least, VERY liberal... now it means Republican, conservative or, at least, VERY conservative. C'est la vie.

    My username not withstanding, I have recently added more duels to the same site. These are from France in the period from 1910-1914 and involve a weapon with a point but no edge... quite the opposite of either paukschlager or glockenschlager.
     
  6. Dec 8, 2009 #6
    lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    Not in German fencing culture of this this time . It was a mark of bravery and determination.

    True. IMS, it's more commonly known as Mensur fencing or the like.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  7. Dec 8, 2009 #7
    lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    Sorry; didn't mean to imply that you didn't know the origin of your nom de guerre. Just expanding upon it for readers who may not be aware. :)

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  8. Dec 9, 2009 #8
    David43515

    David43515 Master Black Belt

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    Kirks right. I`ve read that getting the chhek scar was actually very fashionable, and guys found relatively painless ways to do it. Similar to Judoka who are very proud of their culiflower ears or black fraternities whose members sport brand marks burned into their flesh.
     
  9. Dec 9, 2009 #9
    Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    LOL, now that is cheating! On another note though, the 'dueling scar' thing in Germany is now associated with the Nazis and the Neo Nazis who are still around sadly.
     
  10. Dec 9, 2009 #10
    lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    Allied propaganda.

    The schmiss was (more or less, so I've read) necessary for a military career. At the time the German military was working for the Nazis (duh ;-) Not EVERY military man was a Nazi at heart, but if you didn't want to be blackballed (at the minimum) you toed the party line.

    I've also read that ladies from a certain social strata just plain wouldn't date a dude without a schmiss. Don't know if it's true or not but I can tell you for a fact that guys will do ALL KINDS of stupid things if there's even a hint of the chance of the possibility of "get'n some" if you know what I mean. :p

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  11. Dec 9, 2009 #11
    cdunn

    cdunn 2nd Black Belt

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    The root verb, schlagen, means to hit or strike. So it's hit(pop) music vs the game of hitting each other with knives.
     
  12. Dec 9, 2009 #12
    Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    I'm not talking about during the war, I mean in the present day, the Neo Nazis have taken it on board as part of their 'culture'.
     
  13. Dec 9, 2009 #13
    CoryKS

    CoryKS Senior Master

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    I was thinking the same thing. I guess if you're too good nobody will believe you were in a duel.
     
  14. Dec 9, 2009 #14
    lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    You can still blame WWII Allied propaganda for that.

    They deliberately associated the schmiss with Nazis. It was easy to do, since most of western culture, by the time of WWII, thought facial scars were pretty nasty anyway. The connection just "stuck."

    I'm a little sad to be honest. I mean, a crooked nose used to be the mark of a Boxer; a mark of a man who had "sand," "bottom," the ability withstand an adversaries blows and continue. Then (probably in the 30's or 40's at a guess) it began to be associated in popular culture with criminals, usually low level Mafia enforcers - everywhere from Sunday cartoon strips like Dick Tracy to cinema films.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  15. Dec 9, 2009 #15
    lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    It was just the culture. A facial scar meant you were brave and tough.

    As I understand it, go back a few years to early 19th C. Spain and a facial scar was a sign of deliberate and specific shame. You'd lost a navaja duel and your opponent had scarred your cheek as a symbol of his superiority.

    Scars are just scars. Culture determines what they mean. :)

    Kinda like tattoos. Used to be only rough men, sailors, army, low-class thugs, etc. had tats. But it's different now. Now, if you don't have a tat you've lead a boring life. Heck, with the "tough guy" tats of MMA being so popular, there's been a groundswell of wannabe tats. 10 years ago it was the "tramp-stamp" tats and the "bad kanji" tats.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  16. Dec 9, 2009 #16
    jarrod

    jarrod Senior Master

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    i've always been a little disappointed that i'm not more susceptible to cauliflower ear. i get it.

    jf
     

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