EPAK and SL-4

[D.Cobb]

SL4 vs. kenpo example: Attacking mace. Everyone drops back and hits with the inside-downward hammerfist/block. Not everyone pulls the guy out of his tree first, and places the pinning hand over the wrist, flattening out the carpal row (subtle misalignment of a distal extremity that effects the vulnerability of the entire system), targeting the hammerfist/block thing to specific points on the inside of the arm to further yank the guy out of his tree, before proceeding with the rest of the tech. Mr. Bugg posted a video of Doc doing an impromptu discussion of some points in attacking mace on another forum: in the opening 1.5 seconds, the cameraman got the the film running just in time to see the uke getting his head propelled downwards quite rapidly as a result of these subtle differences; a light bonk to the point on the biceps insertion combined with the carpal row flattening & nerve cavity/arterial compression inside the wrist. Doc can also be seen placing his hands together near his head in the kenpo meditation position prior to delivering the final bow; an index that provides a proprioceptive check to informs the body of the kenpoist, and provides some brief re-alignment before delivering an aligned blow to a misaligned opponent. In the middle, you can see him slide the radius of his forearm up and under the guys chin, tipping the skull back just slightly, making the righting reflex in the brain scramble to orient to a horizon or central location in space; can't do two things at once...body has to drop the shields to process this dilemma. The next move is the left-over-right index-to-backfist. Also in that vid, his left rear hand is seen being brought into that index from what seems to be a position behind him; another method of indexing...the path of travel attenuates various muscles in the body, causnig an improved coordination of parts for greater power and authority in the final delivery of the strike; again, aligned kenpoist striking a misaligned opponent. The "testable assertions" part is that you can play with these for yourself on heavy bags, trees, focus mitts, whatever. After trying these moves with the indexes inserted and adhered to, going back to the non-indexed versions feels substantially weaker & uncoordinated.

I was wondering Sir, where would I have to click to find the aforementioned video?

--Dave:asian:

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I was wondering Sir, where would I have to click to find the aforementioned video?

--Dave:asian:

It's on youtube. I'll see if I can find the URL & paste it here, though I'm pretty crappy at the whole tech thing.

D.

 

[IWishToLearn]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAa7I0r2bOg

Doc at Chinese Restaurant from YouTube.

 

[D.Cobb]

Thank you gents. What a scary individual

--Dave

 

[kenposikh]

Thank you gents. What a scary individual

--Dave

He's alright when you get to know him

 

[jazkiljok]

However, although I have pointed out on numerous occasions the flaws in the commercial system, I have always stated the level of sophistication of what is done with this system is a direct reflection on, and the responsibility of the head instructor.

i don't know if anyone else has posed this question but when you say the commercial system is dependent on the individual knowledge and ability of the head instructor-- how exactly does that differ from other arts like for example-- Shotokan Karate, Okinawan Kempo, TKD and the myriad chinese arts? couldn't you apply the same standard of competency in what is taught to all arts?

 

[Sigung86]

i don't know if anyone else has posed this question but when you say the commercial system is dependent on the individual knowledge and ability of the head instructor-- how exactly does that differ from other arts like for example-- Shotokan Karate, Okinawan Kempo, TKD and the myriad chinese arts? couldn't you apply the same standard of competency in what is taught to all arts?

Kinda taking the liberty to jump in here with observations on other systems. When I was living in England, back in 74 - 78, there was a poll of some sort taken by a Magazine published in Taiwan, and there were over 2000 assorted styles of Kung fu extent in Taiwan and mainland China ... Up to and including the "Magnificent Battling Butterfly" ... Very clever those "Heathen Chine'e". The Japanese, who inevitibly took their queues and most of their karaté knowledge from the Okinawans, ended up with a myriad of different styles all, more or less, based on the admixture of Okinawan "Té" and Chinese kung fu styles. The interesting things to me, from my various investigations is that the volume of material evident in many of these systems was pretty small.

The masters of many of these systems took a minimalist point of view regarding what they actually practiced, and what they taught. For instance, Funakoshi (Shotokan's founder) practiced only 3 or 4 kata, and tons of makiwara and other striking methods. Even Mitose, regardless of whether you believe, disbelieve, idolize, or intensely dislike, only practiced one or two kata, that were, essentially, Okinawan. Not Japanese, Not Chinese, but Okinawan... That is, if his press corp is to be believed.

All of that, simply says, that you are right. You get no more, nor no less out of any system that you endeavour to learn than the instructor is capable of giving you. After that, it becomes what you make it, or don't make it... And it then becomes something else. Much like most of the Kenpo that is out there nowadays.

I believe it is funny/strange, coming from a Tracy's background like I do, to watch what is happening, and sadly, in American Kenpo. No one has "the secret". Even Doctor Chapél, who is one of three people that I would want to study any form of Kenpo under, has, simply put, a path and an evolution. His material takes what he has learned from SGM Parker, and further personal evolution and become SL-4. It isn't for everyone. It is, however, an extremely intelligent path or "Journey". But the point is that for all the years that Tracy's was a commercial franchise system, It has had the same ups and downs.

Go to Ted Sumner's school and you will find, I do believe, that his applications of Tracy Karaté techniques are really different from the techniques taught in Tim Golby's schools in the Midwest. And all are, to a greater or lesser extent different from the Tracy's schools on the East Coast, and even more afield from the JT Will Schools, which started as Tracy based schools, and went on to become an interesting mix of Tracy's and Ed Parker's Kenpo, along with stuff that some of us have never seen before. Howver, it was all, basically, Tracy's Karaté, with the instructor's personal emphasis and insights. :idunno:

What that all gets you, if you could spend your entire life studying all the myriad systems, is all the instructors know. No one has the entire system, OF ANYTHING, not one, each has only her/his interpretation of that system, and that ... IS ALL YOU GET, because, that is all THEY GOT.

Ahem ... We now resume our regular broadcasting. :caffeine:

 

[D.Cobb]

He's alright when you get to know him

Yes, I've had that impression over the years.

--Dave

 

[Flying Crane]

Kinda taking the liberty to jump in here with observations on other systems. When I was living in England, back in 74 - 78, there was a poll of some sort taken by a Magazine published in Taiwan, and there were over 2000 assorted styles of Kung fu extent in Taiwan and mainland China ... Up to and including the "Magnificent Battling Butterfly" ... Very clever those "Heathen Chine'e". The Japanese, who inevitibly took their queues and most of their karaté knowledge from the Okinawans, ended up with a myriad of different styles all, more or less, based on the admixture of Okinawan "Té" and Chinese kung fu styles. The interesting things to me, from my various investigations is that the volume of material evident in many of these systems was pretty small.

The masters of many of these systems took a minimalist point of view regarding what they actually practiced, and what they taught. For instance, Funakoshi (Shotokan's founder) practiced only 3 or 4 kata, and tons of makiwara and other striking methods. Even Mitose, regardless of whether you believe, disbelieve, idolize, or intensely dislike, only practiced one or two kata, that were, essentially, Okinawan. Not Japanese, Not Chinese, but Okinawan... That is, if his press corp is to be believed.

All of that, simply says, that you are right. You get no more, nor no less out of any system that you endeavour to learn than the instructor is capable of giving you. After that, it becomes what you make it, or don't make it... And it then becomes something else. Much like most of the Kenpo that is out there nowadays.

I believe it is funny/strange, coming from a Tracy's background like I do, to watch what is happening, and sadly, in American Kenpo. No one has "the secret". Even Doctor Chapél, who is one of three people that I would want to study any form of Kenpo under, has, simply put, a path and an evolution. His material takes what he has learned from SGM Parker, and further personal evolution and become SL-4. It isn't for everyone. It is, however, an extremely intelligent path or "Journey". But the point is that for all the years that Tracy's was a commercial franchise system, It has had the same ups and downs.

Go to Ted Sumner's school and you will find, I do believe, that his applications of Tracy Karaté techniques are really different from the techniques taught in Tim Golby's schools in the Midwest. And all are, to a greater or lesser extent different from the Tracy's schools on the East Coast, and even more afield from the JT Will Schools, which started as Tracy based schools, and went on to become an interesting mix of Tracy's and Ed Parker's Kenpo, along with stuff that some of us have never seen before. Howver, it was all, basically, Tracy's Karaté, with the instructor's personal emphasis and insights. :idunno:

What that all gets you, if you could spend your entire life studying all the myriad systems, is all the instructors know. No one has the entire system, OF ANYTHING, not one, each has only her/his interpretation of that system, and that ... IS ALL YOU GET, because, that is all THEY GOT.

Ahem ... We now resume our regular broadcasting. :caffeine:

I think this is a very very good post, with some excellent points made.

Everyone's understanding is going to be specific to that person, and any students that they have will be a reflection of that, coupled with their own ability to understand the material and willingness to explore and experiment.

 

[Doc]

i don't know if anyone else has posed this question but when you say the commercial system is dependent on the individual knowledge and ability of the head instructor-- how exactly does that differ from other arts like for example-- Shotokan Karate, Okinawan Kempo, TKD and the myriad chinese arts? couldn't you apply the same standard of competency in what is taught to all arts?

Excellent question sir and the answer is really a simple one. Most tend to think of Kenpo of the Ed Parker Lineage as being one body of work that 'evolved' over the years to whatever it is they are doing. This is actually far from the truth, but close to it as well.

Most rational people would have to agree that WHAT a student learned would depend on WHEN they learned. This is a biggie because it also reflects upon WHERE Mr. Parker was in his own study and knowledge. Ed Parker, (even if he wanted to), couldn't teach you something he didn't know himself.

What many have not allowed for is that in the 'evolution of Ed Parker's Kenpo,' there is not ONE time line. 'Linearity' only belongs to the individual teacher. Each teacher represents their own different 'branch' from the source. However, they too also have their own evolutionary differences and generational teacher lineages, with subsequent branches, all stemming from the same source, but also 'tailored' either intentionally or unintentionally by the source for various reasons, including the sources limited knowledge at the time.

By all accounts, Mr. Parker evolved through at least three (3) distinct evolutionary junctions BEFORE he created the 'commercial product.' He came to the mainland with HIS BRANCH of Professor's Chow's "Kenpo Karate." For those who studied with Parker when he first arrived, this was their 'branch' beginning. These students evolved from there, some in varying stages with Ed Parker, others moving on their own. This more simplistic era yielded the first book on "Kenpo-Karate," and its influence can be seen in the works of some of his earliest students and their branches.

Almost immediately, Ed Parker switched to studying a more sophisticated understanding of the martial sciences with Chinese, (and one Samoan) Masters, and entered his "Chinese Kenpo Phase." His study here yielded his second book, "Secrets of Chinese Karate," as he began an in-depth examination and study of "karate's" source and history and formed a new 'branch' in the Parker Lineage Tree.' His students from this branch are clearly 'different' from subsequent branches, not having learned the previous version of "kenpo-Karate."

His third stage, after he was satisfied he had sufficient information to make his next transformation, is most significant to me because it yielded what became Mr. Parker's most sophisticated, and personal art which was NOT commercialized, "American Kenpo." Here Mr. Parker began his own PERSONAL evolution, as opposed to being in many respects, a student previously.

"American Kenpo" was supposed to be, and is Mr. Parker's method of teaching all of the sophisticated aspects of the Chinese Sciences, but without the cultural accoutrements baggage, that slowed the learning process. He wanted to focus on street effectiveness and not foreign cultures and rituals, as all of the Asian Arts promoted at the time. He wanted a purely "American" version that presented the material from an American aspect, with American ideas and expressions instead of 'foreign mystic concepts and language.' Having been a part of the Chinese Kenpo Phase, I welcomed this new American Kenpo, and it is where I personally began to grow and understand my own previous training. Primarily it was labor intensive to teach and required a high level teacher of which there was only one. Ed Parker himself. You couldn't begin to explore American kenpo unless Ed Parker taught it to you himself, and you had to evolve with him over time if he wanted to teach you. However to proliferate the art, he had to create the next phase, which did not require him to be on the mat every night training students.

This next phase is where the confusion is generated. Before this, Mr. Parker was evolving in a direct timeline. The next 'branch,' called once again "Kenpo Karate," was expressly created to proliferate and expand on a different version of Kenpo Karate that would allow students to branch out and form businesses, but more importantly, this is when Parker stopped teaching regularly in any school with minor exceptions.

This fourth branch however did not stop Parker from continuing to evolve his American Kenpo third branch separately. By his own admission, the 'new & improved Kenpo Karate' spawned the business of Kenpo, (with a huge nudge from Al Tracy) while "American Kenpo" reflected the depth of the art and contained evolving information that could not possibly be included in the 'business version' for a myriad of reasons.

"Kenpo Karate" was tuned for success, and created for the American 'fast food franchise' market. It was based on abstract motion, which allowed it to be taught by anyone with a background in any martial art. Something that was important because the bulk of its instructors were recruited and imports from other styles of the art with a chance to make a buck off what they enjoyed doing. This is why Kenpo Karate has no real well defined base or basics, beyond conceptual ideas. You don't tell a 'business partner' black belt from Shotokan how to teach a forward bow, blocks, or kicks. You suggest ideas, and allow him to choose. It is also why I choose to remind you that only a handful of people began studying with Ed Parker as no experience white belts, and made it to black. Most came to Parker with previous experience and most of them as black belts already.

Kenpo Karate didn't really introduce much in the way of 'new' information. Concepts like 'tailoring, rearrangements, insertions, deletions, etc existed all along. What Parker uniquely did to sell kenpo Karate is he took it out of the hands of the experienced instructors who has always done this, and told students at white belt they COULD do it as well. Ed Parker flooded them with information before anyone could get bored and moves on to 'handball' or weight training, and used the belt as a 'reward.' He created a standard for the martial arts that had never existed before. He looked at terms like "McDojo" with pride. Introducing to a culture a method of learning self-defense, that previously had none, and then like McDonald's creating a degree of consistency that carried from school to school was genius.

Everyone agreed it wasn't the best way to learn the arts. That was never an argument. It is what it is. If you wanted a fine meal, you had to seek out the restaurant and chef with years of culinary skill and knowledge. That restaurant and chef may not be available to you. They may be too far away, or the waiting list might make them unavailable. But if you wanted to stop being hungry, get full, and satisfied until your next meal, McDonald's fit the bill. And the secret to success was not the great food (or art), but the consistency from franchise to franchise. No, it wasn't fine dining but you knew what you were getting because the menu was there in front of you, and the value was present because you knew what everything was going to cost, and about how long it was going to take. It presented a conceptual curriculum that could be interpreted by students and teachers alike, and kept everyone moving and happy.

Therefore, you see what makes this branch 'commercial' is it was created by Ed Parker to be commercial. It wasn't an art that someone 'watered down' as some suggest; it was created to be commercially successful in a business environment. There are many who choose to not teach it commercially, but that does not change the nature of the material which is wholly a commercial curriculum based on exploring motion. Kenpo Karate's redeeming quality, as Parker planned, was its teachers. The best will expound on the concepts and teach at a high level. The worse will follow the conceptual limited idea manuals, and expect that will be enough. For many it is, but like McDonald's, it has 'culinary limitations' inherent in the product, no matter how grand or altruistic your intentions. If what someone teaches is based on 'motion,' it is the commercial product. Unfortunately too many of the now teachers were pushed through the ranks with little real practical knowledge, Now they teach.

Me personally, I am still on the Chinese Kenpo to American Kenpo Branch that was NOT based on motion and I am not the only one. Sigung LaBounty always comes to mind because we communicate quite often. You can call 'Motion Kenpo" American Kenpo or EPAK but it is not, according to Mr. Parker. However, in the end it's all semantics, and if it works for you who really cares. The main thing is to NOT assume everyone is or should be doing the same thing and argue about techniques, or 32/24/16, or the order of forms. Let's fight about function. That makes more sense to me.

Below is a MartialTalk post from the archive of 2002. I have no idea whom it is(AMK?), other than they appear to be someone I've come in contact with. If they read and recognize, I'm sure they'll chime in. Thanks.

10-13-2002, 01:21 PM
amk
Guest

Motion or Commercial Kenpo

First off I am not putting anyone down, nor saying that any one is better than any one else. I have been fortunate to have trained with many different instructors one on one, and in seminars as well. So let me ask this: What is American Kenpo? According to many, it is the Study of Motion. You learn techniques and the motion that is used in the techniques from 3 points of view, being 1st doing the technique (i.e. Delayed Sword), 2nd doing the attack (i.e. Front right hand lapel grab), and 3rd watching 2 other people practice the technique in 1st and 2nd person situations.

Now the time that I spent with Mr. Huk Planas, he told me and others that American Kenpo is: "The Study of Motion." Mr. Planas talked about the old days and how they had 3-8 variations on every technique, and when Mr. Parker wanted to make manuals, they then condensed the information to make it more acceptable for a manual, which was the way Mr. Parker thought he could spread the art further. He also added that they all had writers cramp from just doing one variation. New techniques were created to complete categories of motion.

This seems obvious to be a new system of learning Kenpo based on motion, which would be a "Motion Kenpo" or "Commercial Kenpo" system to me, whatever you want to call it. A system that was developed not inferior to anything else, as the quality of student does directly relate to the level that their instructor delivers to, and demands of their students.

Now according to Mr. Sean Kelley, Mr. Parker rarely taught after this new system was developed. The reason I can make this statement is that according to Mr. Kelley, Mr. Parker was on the Road with Elvis most of the time in the Early 70's, and that would mean that under the new guidelines that most of what was taught was based on Motion, not by Mr. Parker, but by his students. Mr. Parker's students were heavily involved in creating the new system, as Mr. Planas helped with the category completion, and writing of the technique manuals. What does all of this mean? Well basically it means that prior to this time period of the Early 70's when this was created, would have been different in the teachings. So if people like Dr. Chapél, or Sigung Steven LaBounty, etc. were studying Kenpo before this time frame it wouldn't have been "Motion Kenpo". The main difference between the two can be summarized by the following viewpoints as well:

According to Mr. Planas: "Their is no write or wrong way to do a technique, as long as you obey the rules of motion."

According to Dr. Chapél, American Kenpo SubLevel Four is learned and practiced in a way that forces you to do things that increase the likely hood of victory. Rearrangement and other aspects of "Motion Kenpo" are removed to stack the odds in your favor, like Positive and Negative Body Posture, Destructive Sequencing, and other aspects that can't be rearranged with out removing those advantages given to us through sciences of body mechanics.

In my time with Dr. Chapél, he has taught me to train under stressful realistic situations, and deal with people that really know how to attack properly, or even at an expert level where they grab you in a wrist lock before you know it, and then what to do. That is different than my time with Mr. Planas, as he liked to talk about reading (reading the attack), and he recommends that you train using a two step approach, to give you time to read the attack.

Dr. Chapél, has given me material, and experiences to make techniques real, having been K.O.'d by him, and had more than above par training with his students as well. Basically he has given me more of the internal aspects of the Martial Arts /Sciences than anyone else, even going outside Kenpo.

Clearly their are aspects of the Martial Arts that are just missing from many instructors in the Martial Arts, that Dr. Chapél has addressed within American Kenpo; Destructive Sequencing, Anatomical Alignment, Positive Body Posture, Negative Body Posture, etc. I have friends that have studied for years in Long Fist, Aikido, Hung Gar, Choy Li Fut, White Eyebrow, and many others that have been amazed at what I have shown them that Dr. Chapél, has taught me. I think they have slanted foreheads from all the Homer Simpson: "Douuuu!" with a slap on the forehead, when I tell them why they are doing something the way they are. The truth is, that I only know of it because of Sub Level 4 training.

One more story that has been passed down by Mr. Sean Kelley, is a story that Jimmy Woo used to teach at the Pasadena school, and he talked of internal aspects of the arts, and even talked of one in which you could avoid death via strangulation or hanging, and someone he told this to, died of asphyxiation attempting the technique. Mr. Parker found out about this and their relationship ended as the students were obviously not ready for this type of information. So who is to say that Mr. Parker didn't think that some were ready for some the information and passed it on to some and not others. Just as he did with the knife material, and other aspects that Mr. Parker taught different things to different people. Enough of me being on my soap box, I just feel that some people have been unfairly ganged up on, and stories twisted and turned, without fully trying to comprehend what is being said. These people have taken some of the information and taken offense to it, as if they are doing something bad, and that is not my statement. I am saying that using logic and common sense you should be able to determine that their has been more than one system of American Kenpo, and that many people know many different things. Also having met with some of these people's instructors it becomes more clear that they attack because they have lost many students to Dr. Chapél, and the fact that many have been Black Belts makes it hurt even worse. These are my observations, no offense is meant, I just needed to state the things I have witnessed and felt.

 

[Doc]

Continuing:

The big distinction between the commercial aspect of Kenpo Karate and more traditional arts lie in their intended purpose. Most were designed to teach specific things before there was any commercial aspect to the arts. Some to teach fighting, healing, medicine, etc, and others to teach discipline through sporting activities, and still other 'way' arts designed to foster an inner peace. None of these arts were created specifically to be a money making enterprise, until "kenpo Karate." At some point many arts have sprung up to take advantage of the marketplace, as well as other older more traditional arts began to modify their training to accomodate older men, women, and children. But the difference here is these arts changed to make money, whereas Kenpo Karate was created to make money therefore even if you choose to teach for free, the curriculum is still a commercial product, with all the attendant limitations.

 

[Hand Sword]

Thank you sir!

Those were great posts!

:asian:

 

[Carol]

Thank you sir!

Those were great posts!

:asian:

Amen. Thank you both Dan and Dr. Chapél :asian:

 

[marlon]

Hello master Chapel,
i am wondering what you would recommend to someone interested in undersrtanding and learning to apply what you teach to do on thier own? Are thier concepts and practices that you could share that would allow someone who does not train in SL-4 or even EPAK to see and grow from this knowldge that you have rfecieved from Ed Parker. Without the infinite insights highly specific terminology could you explain a way for myself to "get it" at least on a level that could help me grow my kempo in that direction?

Thank you

Respectfully,
Marlon
P.S. perhaps i should have started a new thread?

 

[Doc]

Hello master Chapel,
i am wondering what you would recommend to someone interested in undersrtanding and learning to apply what you teach to do on thier own? Are thier concepts and practices that you could share that would allow someone who does not train in SL-4 or even EPAK to see and grow from this knowldge that you have rfecieved from Ed Parker. Without the infinite insights highly specific terminology could you explain a way for myself to "get it" at least on a level that could help me grow my kempo in that direction?

Thank you

Respectfully,
Marlon
P.S. perhaps i should have started a new thread?

Hello sir. For the record, 'mister' or "doc" is fine, "master" is for others. If you follow any of the theads on forums where I post, one of things I always speak of is how difficult it is to relay information this way.

The particular knowledge utilized in the teaching and applications of SubLevel Four Kenpo are my interpretations of what Ed Parker taught me, and what he did in his own applications. Although complex, it is actually easy to learn, if not understand, but only from a qualified instructor. It is labor intensive and intricate requiring personal discipline, and even the most experienced instructor may not even observe and recognize the application mechanisms. It is comprised of multiple sciences that all come together through the conduit of the human body, and the applications found within dynamic human interaction.

Absent standing in front of an instructor, it is impossible sir. This is why Parker created Kenpo Karate. Because he didn't have to be there and students could interpret anything that worked for them. Kenpo Karate is 90% concepts and 10% principles. SubLevel Four Kenpo is the opposite at 90% principles and 10% concepts. Sorry I couldn't help you sir.

 

[marlon]

Thanks anyway, Doc

Respectfully,
Marlon

Hello sir. For the record, 'mister' or "doc" is fine, "master" is for others. If you follow any of the theads on forums where I post, one of things I always speak of is how difficult it is to relay information this way.

The particular knowledge utilized in the teaching and applications of SubLevel Four Kenpo are my interpretations of what Ed Parker taught me, and what he did in his own applications. Although complex, it is actually easy to learn, if not understand, but only from a qualified instructor. It is labor intensive and intricate requiring personal discipline, and even the most experienced instructor may not even observe and recognize the application mechanisms. It is comprised of multiple sciences that all come together through the conduit of the human body, and the applications found within dynamic human interaction.

Absent standing in front of an instructor, it is impossible sir. This is why Parker created Kenpo Karate. Because he didn't have to be there and students could interpret anything that worked for them. Kenpo Karate is 90% concepts and 10% principles. SubLevel Four Kenpo is the opposite at 90% principles and 10% concepts. Sorry I couldn't help you sir.

 

[jazkiljok]

Continuing:

The big distinction between the commercial aspect of Kenpo Karate and more traditional arts lie in their intended purpose. Most were designed to teach specific things before there was any commercial aspect to the arts. Some to teach fighting, healing, medicine, etc, and others to teach discipline through sporting activities, and still other 'way' arts designed to foster an inner peace. None of these arts were created specifically to be a money making enterprise, until "kenpo Karate." At some point many arts have sprung up to take advantage of the marketplace, as well as other older more traditional arts began to modify their training to accomodate older men, women, and children. But the difference here is these arts changed to make money, whereas Kenpo Karate was created to make money therefore even if you choose to teach for free, the curriculum is still a commercial product, with all the attendant limitations.

First off, thanks for the lengthy and informative reply. Well worth the read for those interested in the topic.

So- what I think I’m getting from this is that a money making operation has by necessity a laissez faire curriculum that tolerates significant differences in how one learns basics, teks, forms from school to school even though it has some basic “franchise” guidelines whereas the MA traditional schools’ curriculum will focus on specifics that have been handed down generation to generation; i.e. a round house kick or a kata will both look and be taught the same from shotokan school to school but the same couldn’t be said for kenpo karate.


It seems that, while the material itself in traditional arts molds the “master-to-be” into a close copy of previous masters—in the kenpo karate school, the “master-to-be” molds the material to his/her own abilities, which then becomes a new template of “the master” and by extension of that- what is taught in class.

yes?

 

[Doc]

First off, thanks for the lengthy and informative reply. Well worth the read for those interested in the topic.

So- what I think I’m getting from this is that a money making operation has by necessity a laissez faire curriculum that tolerates significant differences in how one learns basics, teks, forms from school to school even though it has some basic “franchise” guidelines whereas the MA traditional schools’ curriculum will focus on specifics that have been handed down generation to generation; i.e. a round house kick or a kata will both look and be taught the same from shotokan school to school but the same couldn’t be said for kenpo karate.


It seems that, while the material itself in traditional arts molds the “master-to-be” into a close copy of previous masters—in the kenpo karate school, the “master-to-be” molds the material to his/her own abilities, which then becomes a new template of “the master” and by extension of that- what is taught in class.

yes?

Very well said sir. It also helps to explain to lack of quality basics, and well as the non existent consistency even within the same school or association between students.

At one level, all of my students do the same thing the same way. No variation, just correct within the curriculum. (Kinda like the old chop-sockey flicks where there are a couple of hundred students in the courtyard all moving the same on an exercise in unison.) This is learning the abcs and vocabulary. They can't change the spelling of a word or rearrange a sentence yet, because they don't understand 'sentence structure' yet. This is blasphamy in Kenpo-Karate circles where 'self expression' is more important than proper structure.

 

[Brian Jones]

Great Post Doc.

By the way I wonder if "AMK" might not just be Andrew King from Columbus, Ohio. I knew Andrew when we both trained with Peter Galupo in Columbus. Andrew just passed the bar by the way.

Brian Jones

 

[Doc]

Great Post Doc.

By the way I wonder if "AMK" might not just be Andrew King from Columbus, Ohio. I knew Andrew when we both trained with Peter Galupo in Columbus. Andrew just passed the bar by the way.

Brian Jones

You know it could be Andrew, but I don't seem to remember him posting here. I knew he passed the bas, he and I stay in touch. Glad to see you're still around sir.