EPAK and SL-4

[Hand Sword]

Just starting this thread for information purposes (or just to be a peace maker) , so, I would like all to participate in that manner. For a while in these forums there has been quite a bit of hostility between the EPAK practitioners and SL-4 practitioners. Both sides have tried to separate themselves, as well as, re-group themselves. It was always my contention that both versions of Kenpo mentioned came from the same person. Material, such as techniques, terminology, etc.. are the same, maybe a little different focus points on the execution, but, still, fundamentally the same. It has been pointed out that the differences are extreme, and a sentiment that all the other's do this or don't do that etc.. Would the participants of both sides please, honestly explain the differences between the two as they see or believe it? What are the real feelings you have or think about the other side, or counter feelings to their theories? (Please keep it a civil, honest exchange)

 

[JamesB]

Just starting this thread for information purposes (or just to be a peace maker) , so, I would like all to participate in that manner. For a while in these forums there has been quite a bit of hostility between the EPAK practitioners and SL-4 practitioners. Both sides have tried to separate themselves, as well as, re-group themselves.

I don't recall any form of hostility, other than a couple of Internet-trolls attempting to discredit the SL-4 methodology. Certainly there is no rift between 'EPAK' (whatever that means) and 'SL-4' - all the AK posters here (apart from the trolls) seem to be cordial and friendly towards each other at all times??

 

[Rick Wade]

2 more cents worth. I am quickly running out of money.

I originally joined an origination years ago and they did things there way. I let my dues laps and then started getting advice from different organizations in which you will see at least three different ways to do any given technique.

I have never had the privilege of working with Doc or any SL-4 Kenpo guys.

Here is my take you need to find and organization that has its Kenpo tailored as close to you as possible and the tweak it to fit you correctly. That is the way Mr. Parker wanted it “the art to fit you not you fit the art.”

So these guys that say SL-4 doesn't work or it is crap well they are wrong in my opinion, because even though the AKKI doesn’t work for me I can take allot of good things from it. Even though SL-4 I haven't experienced it first hand I can take what I have seen them write on different forums and apply it to MY KENPO yes it is mine because it works for me. I don't like the bickering however I do like the differences. And yes it is my Kenpo because through being a member of the IKKA, UKS and now UKF I don't move exactly like anyone else nor would I want to, that is why it is mine.

Aloha and Mahalo for letting me vent.

Rick

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Let me see if I can help encapsulate it. Coming from CK, then AK, then SL4 "hobbyist", I am familiar with both sides of the coin. Although, I cannot claim to be unbiased.

AK has/had many forms; Parker kept changing his art, making modifications, or sometimes just simply emphasizing different parts of the core cirriculum to reflect what he was working on. AK itself had several name changes to reflect these "upgrades" (think in terms of software releases...version 1.0, 2.0, 2.5, 3.0, etc.). EPAK was the last fully endorsed version of kenpo taught by Ed Parker to the consuming public. Those who learned it have been taught it is a complete system, with all of what you need to know embedded within the book (so to speak), somewhere between the covers. If you can't find the answers, you haven't looked deeply enough.

Anyone...and I do mean ANYONE who doesn't agree with this instantaneously challenges the picture many have been "brought up" with in kenpo. It has been 16 years, and still there are heated debates about adding to or deleting from this core. Several "seniors" have broken from the core, and done thier own thing. Some have stated that they have done it based on their own insights; some state it is based on what Mr. Parker transmitted to them personally. Either one makes EPAK fundamentalists upset. Probably the MOST upsetting to traditionalists are the "that's not what Mr. Parker showed me" splinters.

Doc, in founding SL4, fits the latter. He bases the training and performance differences on things he and Mr. Parker had been working on in the time prior to his passing. Despite Mr. Chap'els close ties with Mr. Parker, and his impressive CV as an EP kenpoist during the years Mr. Parker was still with us, there are "seniors" who have a vested interest in denying that Doc/SL4 has anything new, better, or different than the core content. Doc's reputation among his former peers is that, even if he IS on to something, the demeanor with which he conducts himself makes it hard to support him.

I was a guest at the house of a kenpo senior for a BBQ at about the time I just started communicating with Doc, and considering meeting with him. Several other old-school seniors were in attendence (no, I won't name drop, but any kenpoist would know the names). One of them commented to the other, "He does have some good stuff, but how can he expect anyone to hear him when ya go around calling everyone else stupid?" (Note Doc's sig line).

SL4 stresses some main ideas as foundational to solid kenpo. By name, many are already found in kenpo. The application of the idea is what differs. An example would be the slap check and anatomical alignment. Kenpo has them; they are not used the same as they are in SL4. Despite video footage of Mr. Parker teaching the slap check and it's aligning mechanisms at one of Doc's classes, others continue to insist that Mr. Parker never taught that.

Why did I become a convert to SL4? I met Mr. Parker at a seminar, after having been an admirer and kenpoist for many years. Mr. White introduced us. At the time, I was heavy into mind-body relationships, and their effects on performance. One of the "fields" I was into was NLP, considered by some to be a pseudo-science. I was also heavy into "Super-Learning", which was mentioned by Mr. Parker in one of his books. I started a conversation with him about it, which developed into an arrangement to "model" Mr. Parker...to study him while he went through his stuff, stopping him at certain points to inquire about what mental shifts accompanied obvious physical ones. What became very clear to me was that Mr. Parker's personal kenpo was not the same as what rows of black belts at his seminars and classes were doing. Subtle, but profound, differences in key physical performance dimensions. I noted him doing things, stopped him mid-way through techniques or moves to ask him, "what did you just do...right there, and why?" "What shifted in your conceptualization of what you're doing, just before you did that?".

Some of the stuff is already in the kenpo vocabulary...rebounding, eliptical orbits, gasseous phase movement, etc. But he also had multiple self-reminders built into his physical movements that he didn't even know he did, until I stopped him. Now, whether Chapel learned things akin to this from Mr. Parker directly, or simply saw them (they are there for the looking eye, but you do have to know what you're looking at), I can't say. I wasn't there. Neither were his detractors. What I can say is that, my first night meeting with him in person, and yakking kenpo until 3:30 AM in a parking lot, he was doing them. And he had names for them. And he re-wrote (my word) the techniques and some of the forms to include and exaggerate them as a way of "programming" (my word, again) these subtleties of performance into his students.

Now, I'll be the first to say that, when I watch other seniors, some of them do some of the same things. I personally think they picked them up peripherally, from unconsciously modeling Mr. Parker's movements. But they haven't isolated these keys, and included them as part of the specific teaching cirriculum as key core concepts. In my own opinion, that is what makes SL4 different. The specific attention paid to profound subtleties that can make a huge difference.

Example: In the gasseous phase of movement...if you "kenpo" long enough, you will HAVE TO pick up subtle alignment habits, or you'll fall over yourself trying to emulate the explosiveness of this phase, or simply lack the power required to make it "real". However, if you TARGET alignment...graduating speed slowly only as you have the correct subtleties of motion engrained to a habitual place...your expansion into explosive motion is much more solid, authoritative, and painful/intimidating/overwhelming for the opponent. Most kenpo teachers have a financial interest in the development of their students, and in continuing them up the ladder prior to this developing fully...if they even were aiming for it. For me, the cool part of SL4, and the difference that makes a difference, lies in these components having been identified from the core, and stressed in the teaching. Students MAY NOT move up the ladder until they can demonstrate a requisite level of understanding and competency. And the bar for that understanding is heady, and high.

In summary, you can not assert that another way might be better, without automatically intimating that the present way is somehow wrong or less-than. There are political attempts by some splinters to keep the peace by saying, "we just do it this way, beacuse we like grape jelly and you like strawberry". But Doc doesn't. He blatantly and publicly decries much of mainstream kenpo as being faulty and flawed, which pisses of kenpo players and alienates Doc from his own cousin fold. Few try to meet the man, or learn what he does or why; his abrasiveness and unwillingness to "make nice" makes it easy to react, rather than respond.

Hope this aids in your understanding,

Dave

 

[Flying Crane]

Dave,

I appreciate your posts. In all honesty, I find your posts often are the most clear and understandable with regard to SL4, without a heavy reliance on technical terminology that those not initiated into SL4 (such as myself) would be unable to understand.

I am curious to know if there has been any objective measurements to determine if SL4 in action, is truly superior to other forms of kenpo? I understand that SL4 has theories about indexing and movement and such that are designed to put the person into a superior position of stability and ability to move and act decisively. I am not about to try and argue the validity of these theories since I don't even know what they are, but I do sometimes wonder if these theories, while they may be true and accurate in the raw form, are able to readily transfer into use in a chaotic, unpredictable and rapidly changing combat situation.

I believe that some individuals are truly gifted. They are able to do things with ease that others cannot, and they are able to wrap their minds around a concept or a problem in ways that others cannot do. These people are rare. Perhaps Mr. Parker was one of them, perhaps Mr. Chapel is one of them. I never had the opportunity to meet either, so I don't know. But sometimes these rare individuals, with their talents and knowledge, are able to perform in a way that few others will be able to, even with the same knowledge, because most people lack the ability to apply the knowledge and will never gain that ability no matter how they train because it is simply beyond them. But that doesn't mean that these other people can't be talented and effective martial artists in their own right, simply thru a different approach.

So getting back to my question about testing and comparing the arts. I don't know how this could really be done without having senior individuals from each branch of the tree get together and give each other a whomping. I doubt that will ever happen, especially to simply decide whose method is the best. But I'm not sure how a valid comparison could be done otherwise, so I am just pondering.

I am reminded of a story that another member of MartialTalk (non-kenpoist) shared in the forums a few months ago. This Member had been in a tournament many years ago when he was training in a Japanese or Okinawan karate system. At this tournament, he fought a kenpo guy and beat him in the match. Ater the match, the kenpo guy tried to explain to this member that the roundhouse kick he (MT Member) had used failed to follow certain basic principles and rules that, according to Ed Parker and Ed Parker's kenpo, were essential in throwing an effective roundhouse kick. Therefor, the roundhouse kick that this Member had used in the match was inferior and this Member was therefor an inferior martial artist, was the gist of the argument. But the problem is, this Member had scored TWICE with his roundhouse kick against this kenpoist, and that is in part why he won the match. Now it is entirely possible that the kenpoist's comments were accurate with regard to the theories governing the roundhouse kick. Bbut this is completely irrelevant because when push comes to shove, the MT Member could use it effectively and the kenpoist was unable to defend against it.

I sometimes think about this when I read about SL4 in the threads. I imagine the theories are solid, but when the rubber hits the pavement, when it comes to real use, do these theories really transfer into something useable and superior, especially in comparison to other kenpo branches, or even other martial arts? Or are they theories and notions that, while they are true in and of themselves, are unuseable except by those who are truly gifted?

any thoughts on this would be appreciated.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I knew a guy named Clayton...scary smart...first time he saw a Rubiks cube, he asked what it was for. Someone told him (as they handed it to him) that the object was to get all the colors to be the same on each side. In the minute or so it took for the person to tell Clayton what the cube was for and how to work it, he was done. Cube solved. Clayton hands it back and says, "that was fun. Thanks." Despite owning several rubiks cubes, and being able to solve shapes and patterns, I have still never truly solved one in my life. I literally would just tear the thing to pieces, and re-assemble it to the "solved" condition for a dashboard ornament or whatever. Clayton, on the other hand, is just wired that way.

Clayton was a teacher of some rather complex material to rather simple minded folk. That was his job. He could take very complex engineering principles, and distill them down to applicable ideas by road-workers laying asphalt.

I refer to Doc among my old friends who also met Clayton as the "kenpo Clayton". Instantly, knowing Clayton, they get it.

Aside from a senior-senior whomping, I and some of my old kenpo crew have experimentd with some of Doc's principles in action, and found them to be quite sound under fire. Kenpo has, in my own experience, beaten the whole technical thing to death. Kembudo-Kai Kempo was a product of a small workgroup of black belts from lotsa systems, but with a kenpo-heavy representation. Also had lotsa barbarians in the workgroup: power-lifting champs, 265 lb body-builders, bouncers, cops, military combatants...our ultimate product was to clean up the combative potential in kenpo through massive deletion and re-writing. Long techniques were reduced to the first 2-4 moves, followed by takedowns and mauling. "Berserker kenpo". A kind of kenpo Conan the Barbarian would be proud to know. A kenpo-based eclectic approach to include muay thai, judo, jujutsu (BR & JA), JKD, boxing, etc. "Made by black belts, for black belts." I tried to insert my observations of performance keys from Mr. Parker wherever I could, to keep some element of distinction. But largely, it was an early amalgamation of the MMA approach, keeping the front half of selected kenpo techs, and losing the back half, replacing them with controls, holds, pounding combo's, etc.

It was a tough crowd to please, impress, work with, etc. Still are (the guys I stay in touch with). Some are...less than entirely honorable in how they interface with the world around them in the use of self-restraint. Early on, I introduced a couple of these guys to some fundamental SL4 tools, which they -- true to their nature -- tested on some poor saps. To a man jack, they have all come back stoked, looking for more. After injuring my own shoulder working just the SL4 inward block away from Chapel's supervision (I attacked, and a white belt defended), I stopped sharing the stuff. One, because it ain't mine to share (though I have to admit...I spoon fed these guys, because I wanted to see if it would work, and I knew they would place themselves in harms way just to test out something new); two, because I know they'll misuse it, and I DO believe an instructor has a responsibility to screen data from potential hazards. Some of these gentlemen are potential hazards.

To be more clear...these are guys who were already kenpo blacks, switched gears for more grab-and-beat/ground-and-pound based training, have gone looking for trouble with both, and decided to stick with the Kembudo-Kai simplifications/adaptations. Introduced to SL4, they are stoked...""I can't tell if this is simplistic brilliance or brilliant simplicity"...and looking to either dump KBK for SL4 (if they could overcome the inertia about the commute & if Doc would even take them as students), or continue to bug me to spend time with them whenever I make it back down south to download more SL4 to them. So, Yah...it works. And you won't see them killing you with words over how it SHOULD have gone. Some of the key core concepts repeat themselves through the SL4 system, making -- in a way -- the same response to multiple types of attacks.

So, until we get a bunch of kenpo seniors into a ring for pay-per-view, I'm going with my own convincers (the few times I've applied it in the field), and the experiences of my fellow ilk from the Kai.

Best Regards,

Dave

PS -- I loved your story about the kick at the tourney...that perfectly illustrates WHY we did what we did, back when we did it (the KBK modifications). To much mental overkill, not enough "shut up and hit the guy". What SL4 does for me is to give me the HOW to hit the guy...what to do with your body AND his for max effect with minimum liability. Principles help explain some of the math behind Clayton solving the cube, and allow for transmission of ideas around HOW TO solve it. Ultimately, though, an SL4 class is filled with about 60+ low grade collisions per person, each night...learning how to mess up a guys alignment and take him out of play by messing up your classmates alignment and taking him out of play. The bummer is, someone has to be the uke. But that's often where you learn the most...flesh meeting flesh, instead of upteenth perusals and recitations of the Infinite Insights series.

 

[Flying Crane]

Thanks for the response, Dave. I appreciate you relaying your experiences with this. very informative, and I can appreciate the conditions under which things were getting tested. Sounds like some solid happenings were going on.

 

[Hand Sword]

Thank you for the responses. Very informative.

 

[Carol]

the cube, and allow for transmission of ideas around HOW TO solve it. Ultimately, though, an SL4 class is filled with about 60+ low grade collisions per person, each night...learning how to mess up a guys alignment and take him out of play by messing up your classmates alignment and taking him out of play. The bummer is, someone has to be the uke. But that's often where you learn the most...flesh meeting flesh, instead of upteenth perusals and recitations of the Infinite Insights series.

What does this mean, Dave? How is a classmate messed up and taken out of play? What needs to be done to get him back into play?

 

[Sigung86]

Dave,

I have not had the benefit of hands on with Doc ... The one time I was close to getting to where he was in an out of the way state known as Nebraska, I'm afraid that fate intervened. However, I have been a proponent and supporter of Doc and SL-4 since just about day one. He has always been more than generous with me regarding accessibility and answering questions ... Even when I was too thick to comprehend his point without repeated smacks to the back of my fragile shell-like head.

It was interesting to me that when I began, perhaps poorly, attempting to defend Doc and SL-4 on these very forums, many years ago, the number of hate mails I received, a couple from some, until that moment, relatively credible, well ranked and respected by myself. Seems like a very large number of Kenpo folk are afraid to "take it to the lab" to see if it works and would rather have spent time on keyboards than putting it all to the test. Much knowledge can be gained from his "impromptu" experiments, if one but takes the time to do them and attempt to understand the outcomes.

My own background is pretty extensive in Chinese art, as well as Kenpo. It all kind of fits together and We (the folks that I teach and work with) have pretty much gone the same way you have. Lots of Police, military, and ex-military, with a smattering of "smarter" civilians (LOL!!!). It's kind of interesting what one can accomplish with less, regarding the number of strikes and or kicks, when one applies the knowledge that SL-4 seems to impart, even when perceived imperfectly.

One interesting observation ... Last night I was working through some of my old Hsing-I/Ba-Gua material with a weather eye, and there is a lot of Doc material in there in subtle and quiet form.

I love the way you simplify your writings, and you make me grit my teeth, because I have difficulty doing so, even with the use of the NLP modeling. Something silly in my make up, I guess, or I just like to see myself write ... LOL

Thanks again, for your simplifications and illuminations. They are a great adjunct to the good Doctor's information. :ultracool

Saintly Uncle Dan

 

[Hand Sword]

Thank You Sigung86,

Could you elaborate a little on what was similar in your Kung Fu with sl-4, and is it in the "motion kenpo"?

 

[Sigung86]

Thank You Sigung86,

Could you elaborate a little on what was similar in your Kung Fu with sl-4, and is it in the "motion kenpo"?

While I am not really anywhere near qualified to speak to SL-4, I have done my homework when and where provided by Doc either through direct inquiry or reading his and Dave's numerous posts on Martial Talk/Kenpo Talk.

I would very much like to suggest that you plow through his and Dave's posts and see what you can glean that makes sense to you. Try out the experiments that are there and see for yourself. If you need to go further, I would suggest that you make direct contact with the man, himself. Doc, and I suspect Dave, are pretty cool, and relatively easy to talk to.

An interesting side note... In Dave's post, he alludes to Doc's signature as being insulting to some Kenpoka. I've never seen it that way. I tend to see it more as a guide post. One that says, you can stay where you are, and howl at the moon, like a coyote, not knowing that you can never control it, or ... You can work like Hell, and make a journey to that moon.

As a final note... When you deal with the classical methods of Chuan Fa, or Kung fu, you will see Balance Alignments, physical alignments and checks that are used in many diverse ways that are not obvious if you haven't been made aware of them. If you do as I suggested, you will begin to see things that should be obvious everywhere, but aren't. And, no, in my opinion, they aren't in a lot of the current Kenpo, as I understand it. If they were, there would not be any attitude toward SL-4 by those who do not do it.

I could be very wrong on all the above ... But I do think.

Dan

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

What does this mean, Dave? How is a classmate messed up and taken out of play? What needs to be done to get him back into play?

There are some "parlor trick" demonstrations Doc uses to illustrate how the body responds to being struck when it is in alignment, vs. out of alignment. One includes simply pressing a fingertip into a particular pressure point on the face, and noting that it's uncomfortable. This is followed by either an active mis-step on the part of the demo dummy, or a light pop by Doc to a body part that knocks you momentarily off your base. In that moment between when you've lost your composure, and have yet to regain it, pressing into that point again feels like you've been sliced by a knife. The common response (and mine too, having never seen it before) is to keep checking for blood, sure the sunnavabitch cut you with something. Stamp your feet, regain your composure, root, whatever, and press the point a 3rd time. Back to not hurting. I got such a kick out of this, I went around "opening the gates" on unsuspecting, uninformed co-workers (so they couldn't respond to any suggestive expectations), and making them think they got sliced.

In this misaligned state, stuff hurts more. A lot more. One night, to make a point, Doc is slugging Bode in the chest hard enough that the thumping sound is resonating off the walls. But Bode, having aligned himself first, withstands the discomfort. Doc takes one wrist, and tunrs it just to the point you start to see Bode's body compromise itself to follow the stress placed on structure...if you're familiar with aikido, jujustu, chin na, then you've seen it before. It's that disorganized glow that lets you know you're just at the beginning of getting the lock cinched on. Doc then pops Bode in the chest with much less force than before; it sounds different...the thunp has a different resonance. Bode also winces in pain from this lesser shot. Not pain from the joint pressure, but from the hit. In the same spot that didn't hurt like that just a moment ago.

In an aligned state, the body can quite naturally endure more. The shields are up, so to speak. Misalign it first...get it to compromise some part of the integrity of structure and function...and things that don't nornmally hurt, hurt like hell. So, the objective in SL4 is to establish and maintain ones own structural integrity throughout the conflict...and if some movement requires you to momentarily sacrifice or compromise your structure, re-alignments are interjected thoroughout the techniques. Meanwhile, you also make sure your opponent is misaligned. Bumps, bunts, nerve cavity strikes and presses, are all noted in Infinite Insights as part of the diagram flow of the sub-aspects of kenpo...but remember: Parker didn't do it like that. These are inserted throughout the techniques to ensure that the opponent remains misaligned, system-wide. The natural rreaction of the body is to realign itself. If you mis-step, you don't keep stagger-walking for the rest of the day; you correct it, so you can move with the integrity of coordination. So, SL4 self-defense techs are peppered with moves -- control manipulations, bumps, bunts, negative alignment mechanisms -- that are designed to repeatedly knock or twist the poor bugger out of alignment, and keep him that way as his body seeks to find it again.

Some of the paths back to alignment are predictable from certain positions. We can use that against him. So training techs thematically look like: Align yourself in the opening moves, while you misalign him -> whack him someplace supersensitive while he's misaligned -> re-affirm the misalignment by adding another bunt, bump, twist, whatever -> whack him again, etc. Some of the misalignments are subtle, taking advantage of simple reflexes or responses to compromise his well-being; some are gross movements with obvious effects. Either way, the only way to get good at them is to do them...over, and over, and over. So, there you are, in class, getting bunted, tugged, pushed, pulled, then popped in nerves, arteries, veins, joint spaces...all parts that might smart a wee bit if you were aligned, but which hurt like heck when you aren't.

And Doc's classes are 3-6 hours long, depending on the day, and what's being worked on. Honestly, I have no idea how these guys show up for work the next day without moving like walking wounded. My next day always consists of Advil abuse, and the feeling like I was in a car wreck in the recent past with all the soreness still settling in.

Experiment: Have a guy stand there, and kick him in the inside of the upper thigh (not the jewels, just the muscles and femoral artery region). Now, either place a wristlock on him only far enough that you see his body start to respond to following it, or have him twist one of his own wrists so far that it doesn't feel normal. Kick him again, same spot, same amount of force. Watch what happens. Now, do it for 4 hours, misaligning each other, and whacking spots that hitherto did not hurt. The get back to me, and let me know how you feel. The wrist and thigh are not immediately anatomically related, but with the shields down, everything is more vulnerable. And misaligning a guy before you go at him lowers the shields.

SL4 vs. kenpo example: Attacking mace. Everyone drops back and hits with the inside-downward hammerfist/block. Not everyone pulls the guy out of his tree first, and places the pinning hand over the wrist, flattening out the carpal row (subtle misalignment of a distal extremity that effects the vulnerability of the entire system), targeting the hammerfist/block thing to specific points on the inside of the arm to further yank the guy out of his tree, before proceeding with the rest of the tech. Mr. Bugg posted a video of Doc doing an impromptu discussion of some points in attacking mace on another forum: in the opening 1.5 seconds, the cameraman got the the film running just in time to see the uke getting his head propelled downwards quite rapidly as a result of these subtle differences; a light bonk to the point on the biceps insertion combined with the carpal row flattening & nerve cavity/arterial compression inside the wrist. Doc can also be seen placing his hands together near his head in the kenpo meditation position prior to delivering the final bow; an index that provides a proprioceptive check to informs the body of the kenpoist, and provides some brief re-alignment before delivering an aligned blow to a misaligned opponent. In the middle, you can see him slide the radius of his forearm up and under the guys chin, tipping the skull back just slightly, making the righting reflex in the brain scramble to orient to a horizon or central location in space; can't do two things at once...body has to drop the shields to process this dilemma. The next move is the left-over-right index-to-backfist. Also in that vid, his left rear hand is seen being brought into that index from what seems to be a position behind him; another method of indexing...the path of travel attenuates various muscles in the body, causnig an improved coordination of parts for greater power and authority in the final delivery of the strike; again, aligned kenpoist striking a misaligned opponent. The "testable assertions" part is that you can play with these for yourself on heavy bags, trees, focus mitts, whatever. After trying these moves with the indexes inserted and adhered to, going back to the non-indexed versions feels substantially weaker & uncoordinated.

An SL4 technique line is done slowly, to make sure each of these points is addressed and adhered to. Watch a kenpo line...the techs are blazed through like a race, without forcing the opponents body to react to subtleties within the technique. Indexing, misaligning, destructive sequencing, control manipulation and strike manipulation, etc., all introduced in a white belt technique. No moving on until you get it. Not getting it? Mr. Chapel will assign one of his upper belts to work with the newbie until they do. For hours. As a matter of course.

Getting back into play? We are constantly realigning ourselves via indexes. At the end of the tech, if you're the guy feeding, peeling yourself up off the floor feels quite laborious. Once you do a couple of self-aligning movements, you're back to feeling like your old self again. At least until the soreness settles in the next day.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Sorry. Alternating Maces is the AK one I think I'm thinking (mentioned immediately in post above). I'd like to blame it on lack of sleep and a caffiene deficiency, but the reality is I have always sucked about keeping names straight...both of people, and techs. Even now, I ain't sure I got it right, and completely lack any motivation to look it up. Posterity and perfectionism will just have to deal.

D.

 

[kenposikh]

Sorry. Alternating Maces is the AK one I think I'm thinking (mentioned immediately in post above). I'd like to blame it on lack of sleep and a caffiene deficiency, but the reality is I have always sucked about keeping names straight...both of people, and techs. Even now, I ain't sure I got it right, and completely lack any motivation to look it up. Posterity and perfectionism will just have to deal.

D.

Hi DAve,

Yep Alternating maces is correct.

 

[Doc]

I don't recall any form of hostility, other than a couple of Internet-trolls attempting to discredit the SL-4 methodology. Certainly there is no rift between 'EPAK' (whatever that means) and 'SL-4' - all the AK posters here (apart from the trolls) seem to be cordial and friendly towards each other at all times??

I concur James. Although what some erroneuosly call EPAK refers primarily to Ed Parker's commercial product, SL-4 Kenpo is the same art, not a different one. What is different is the level of content and it's approach to teaching that content. I was taught and promoted by Ed Parker, I promoted his son to black belt, and teach Kenpo as he instructed me. In my book, that's Ed Parker's Kenpo. There may be some differences of opinion, but in general, most of Kenpo's practitioners seem to be more curious and inquisitive than hostile about our methodology. Although there are a couple of people who spend their time behind a keyboard looking for something to diatribe about or start bogus threads, most of these are not even really kenpo students, and seem to be a tad short in the rational thought process.

I do not, nor have I ever claimed to have created a 'new' kenpo or different 'secret' art. Those are statements made by keyboard assassins, who have a much smaller profile in-person.

 

[Hand Sword]

Not a bogus thread, a serious question. It's gone on for a while here with the blanket statements. Those Kenpoists don't do this and that, or do. We are different and separate, there are serious differences between us and them. I just wanted to get to the bottom of it, without any hostilities. I always took the view that it all came from one man, therefore it was all EPAK, so no need for the fighting. I was hoping to get out of the world of blanket statements that were the gospel, and defended as such. Where ALL sides could compare notes, so to speak.

Doc, thank you for chiming in Sir.

 

[Carol]

Although what some erroneuosly call EPAK refers primarily to Ed Parker's commercial product, SL-4 Kenpo is the same art, not a different one...

I do not, nor have I ever claimed to have created a 'new' kenpo or different 'secret' art. Those are statements made by keyboard assassins, who have a much smaller profile in-person.

OK, but there was this exchange on this thread

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=560852

You have no intention of being the "nice guy." EPAKer, please.

BTW, I am not an EPAKer as you refer to me. I do SL4 Kenpo.

According to Bode, SL-4 is different than EPAK.

 

[Doc]

OK, but there was this exchange on this thread

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=560852





According to Bode, SL-4 is different than EPAK.

First there is no such thing as EPAK. Ed Parker called it Kenpo Karate, not Ed Parker's American kenpo. He made a distinction and so do I and my lineage. Second, I already said it's different, but that doesn't mean it's not the same art. It is very well established even in the commercial system that everyone 'does things different.' I am not from that interpretation, and we are different as well. Same art different methodology, and execution.

 

[Seig]

There have been and there always will be heated discussions amongst those that are passionate about American Kenpo. It has taken me a few years to finally understand that Doc is not criticising my Kenpo, he and my instructor are good friends, what he is lashing out at are those that decided at green belt that they were really 5ths or better, opened a school in strip mall and started giving the gift Mr. Parker gave us a really bad name in some circles. While Ed Parker never called his art Ed Parker's Kenpo, he did call it American Kenpo. My instructor refers to what we do as the Ed Parker Kenpo Karate System. I believe that where EPAK comes from is in a differentiation between Parker systems and Tracy systems. While Doc may rail about "motion" kenpo, a term I personally find issue with, I think he would be better served calling it commercial kenpo, what he is really railing about is poor instruction based on incomplete information. Honestly, what he is saying is find some good, quality instruction.