Effective Empty Hand vs Knife Strategies

Makalakumu

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Origanally Posted by Paul.

#1. Run. By far the best option, and prefered if you are able too. You have the best chance of survival if you can run.

#2. Do something right away that will disable the knife. An immediate disarm of the knife, an immediate interception and control of the knife hand, or an immediate attack resulting in the attacker being completely immobilized would be an example. The problem with this is you can't screw this up at all; if you do, your chances of being cut to pieces rise dramatically. Furthermore, this requires a committed attack; the less committed and telegraphed, the less likely your chances of pulling this off. And finally, to do this option requires an extreme amount of proficiency on your part.

The biggest problem with this is that no matter how much you have trained, a sharp blade will always cut your flesh on contact, but your technique will not always work on contact. He has a sure thing in his hand, where as your technique is neer a sure thing. This is how the odds are always against you, no matter how trained you are.

#3. Dodge and evade until you can run or grab something to aid you in your defense. This is preferable if you are not trained well, and you can't run. It is also your only option if #2 fails (and you can't run). You can always try #2 again, but remember that your chances of being cut are greater with each failed attempt, and they weren't in your favor to begin with. Problem with this is that once again, the longer your in the situation, the greater your chances of being cut. Furthermore, he can close on you faster then you can retreat just like he can win a running race against you if you run backwards while he runs forwards. Also, action is faster then reaction. Another disadvantage is that if you are able to pick something up, chances are it won't be lethal enough to stop him, thus prolonging the incident and greatening your odds of being cut.

This solution is extremely problamatic, but must be used if it is all that is available to you.

#4 Spaz out, rush in on him, and barade him with attacks while you are trying to control his knife or subdue him. This isn't quite the same as #2. #2 means your first move immediately subdues his ability to cut you; This is more of a rush where you are trying to overwhelm him with attacks. If you are trained, this may be a better option for you then #3, but this one is even more problamatic then the first three options. Even if you are trained well, you have put yourself in a spot where you will either overcome your attacker, or die trying, period. With #2 your attacker is subdued, with #3 you are at least buying yourself time for an escape, or for an object in your hand that will put the odds in your favor. By rushing in with every technique you know to stop him, you have no chance of surviving if you are not successful. Even if you are successful, you will most likely take serious wounds in the process.

This is not recomended, and definatily not as a 1st choice. If you try to run and are unsucessful, you can try options 2-4. If you try option #2, you may be able to try another option if your not dead. If you try #3, you may be able to survive with only non fatal cuts as you buy yourself time to run or subdue. With this option, option 4, failure assures your death. Retreating to another option is not really possible with this choice.

#5. Stand there and let your attacker kill you. This is an option, but it is not a good choice for anyone.

This is a good topic and Paul's breakdown of options is pretty much what I teach my students. I would add eyes to the list. Finger jabs are dicey because you're going to get cut. Run, grab some dirt and throw. Then go for number 1 or number 2. Does anyone have anything to add?
 

theletch1

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Well, doing number 2 when someone pulls a knife is probably what most of us would do.:D Seriously. though, Paul pretty much nailed it with his post. I certainly can't add anything to what he has already put forth except.....yep, sounds 'bout right.
 

hardheadjarhead

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Finger jabs are dicey because you're going to get cut.

Perhaps not. If one were to keep throwing them out, flicking as a jab over and over a la Muhammed Ali, a cut would be inevitable. Unless of course, you were facing an idiot. But a quick flick in the hopes of scoring quickly, perhaps as lead into something else, could be perfectly acceptable. I know some very anal Jun Fan guys who practice it a great deal. They could very well pull it off.

I have a last ditch measure that I rarely teach...it involves me allowing the attacker to stab me in the ribs. I then flex my well trained, rock like abs and trap the blade. With a sharp twist downward, I break the blade off in my body, thereby denying the attacker the use of his weapon.

An added advantage to this last movement is that the blade prevents exanguination, what with it acting like a plug and all. A trauma surgeon can then remove the blade later. Not too much later. For example, one wouldn't want to stop at a McDonald's on the way to the hospital. This would be most unwise. If the blade doesn't kill you, the food very well might.

I call this the "Celtic Body Blade Trap". Don't try this at home. In fact, don't try it anywhere. But if you do manage to pull it off, credit me duly. If it fails...well, clearly you did it incorrectly.

Regards,


Steve
 
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Makalakumu

Makalakumu

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Originally posted by hardheadjarhead
I call this the "Celtic Body Blade Trap". Don't try this at home. In fact, don't try it anywhere. But if you do manage to pull it off, credit me duly. If it fails...well, clearly you did it incorrectly.

Regards,


Steve

I'm sorry, but this is the polish knife defense. Attack enmasse!!!
 
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Shiatsu

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The only true knife defense is.........................Well there isn't one.
 

7starmantis

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Originally posted by Shiatsu
The only true knife defense is.........................Well there isn't one.

Why is it so many practice empty hand techniques against a knife, if this is truly an impossability?

7sm
 

Phil Elmore

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In a move that will no doubt shock 7sm, I agree with him. ;) Knife defenses are not impossible, though they are very dangerous by definition.
 

7starmantis

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Originally posted by Sharp Phil
In a move that will no doubt shock 7sm, I agree with him. ;) Knife defenses are not impossible, though they are very dangerous by definition.

Wait, what just happened here? ? :D

I think this is something for the record books. :D

I agree, very dangerous indeed.

7sm
 

Cruentus

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(I am sure I'll look out the window and see donkeys flying soon...)

But, I agree with 7sm, and Phil.

It's not impossable. You won't get me to say that it wouldn't be better to have a some kind of weapon handy rather then just your hands, but I concur that it isn't impossable.

PAUL
 

Cruentus

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Originally posted by 7starmantis
Why is it so many practice empty hand techniques against a knife, if this is truly an impossability?

7sm

I don't know for sure, but I think Shaitsu was saying that there is no "true" knife defense, meaning "no sure thing."

I could be wrong though.
 

7starmantis

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Originally posted by PAUL
I don't know for sure, but I think Shaitsu was saying that there is no "true" knife defense, meaning "no sure thing."

I could be wrong though.

Then there would be no true defense against a drunken frat guy at a bar either.

7sm
 
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Makalakumu

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Which is more dangerous, a large knife or a small knife? I would say that a large knife is going to give more reach yet the defense empty hand would be the same. Get inside and try to stop the knife. (way easier said then done!!!!) A small knife, on the other hand, there is nothing to grab and is generally going to be harder to attack in my opinion. Anyone have any advice on this situation since this is probably the most common knife defense situation we will see on the street. The long knives we train with, in my opinion, just aren't too practical.
 

hardheadjarhead

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Which is more dangerous, a large knife or a small knife? I would say that a large knife is going to give more reach yet the defense empty hand would be the same. Get inside and try to stop the knife. (way easier said then done!!!!) A small knife, on the other hand, there is nothing to grab and is generally going to be harder to attack in my opinion. Anyone have any advice on this situation since this is probably the most common knife defense situation we will see on the street. The long knives we train with, in my opinion, just aren't too practical.


The long knife is probably more dangerous. It can thrust deeper, has greater cutting surface, greater reach. It has greater mass and can often chop deeply (a Ka-Bar). The small knife is more concealable and harder to disarm. Throughout history, though, you rarely see people carrying small blades. Romans, Goths, Vikings...all carried knives of a pretty hefty nature. It was a tool...it was also a back up.

For carrying, I carry small folders (two Benchmade Griptilians. Occasionally I carry a Spyderco G-!0 Bob Lum). If I needed to carry a bigger knife, I have them. I can't imagine a scenario calling for that, though, and if I carried them it would be for practice in concealing and carrying them...in my world I can't honestly anticpate having to pack a Strider Valkyrie with a nine inch blade...I'm not living in the 4th century.

That latter knife will easily take off a hand, and could conceivably behead someone. So it is quite dangerous. It is heavy, though...and would move significantly slower than the aforementioned folders.

So, in discussing which is more dangerous...are you talking being on the receiving end or carrying end? Sounds like you're on the receiving end training defense against a knife. If you want a short trainer for that purpose...try Ray Dianaldo's site or the Sayoc web site. They have some "folder" trainers that are the perfect size. I wouldn't recommend the trainers from Benchmade, as they're mostly for the user. I don't think they'd hold up well against constant disarms.

Regards,


Steve
 
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Makalakumu

Makalakumu

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For all practical purposes, a short knife is more dangerous since that is most likely what you would see on the street. So, wouldn't we want to train defense against short knives more?
 

7starmantis

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Originally posted by upnorthkyosa
A small knife, on the other hand, there is nothing to grab and is generally going to be harder to attack in my opinion.

If your planning on grabbing the knife, I think your in for some trouble. Both a long knife and a short have dangerous qualities. In my opinion the shorter one is going to be the one you don't know is their until its too late. Its easier to conceal, thus probably in all practicality the more dangerous.

7sm
 

hardheadjarhead

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For all practical purposes, a short knife is more dangerous since that is most likely what you would see on the street. So, wouldn't we want to train defense against short knives more?

The knife that is the most dangerous is the one he has in his hand. If he has a Spyderco Delica in his hand and a Bowie in his belt, the tiny Delica is the more dangerous of the two.

Had I a choice between drawing the Delica or the Bowie, I'd go with the Bowie. It simply causes more damage. Same with a good sized carving knife. It cuts and stabs deeper.

But I do think we need to train defenses against short knives more. There are a lot of defenses out there that are somewhat generic...that would work against a short or long blade.



Regards,


Steve
 
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Makalakumu

Makalakumu

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Originally posted by 7starmantis
If your planning on grabbing the knife, I think your in for some trouble. Both a long knife and a short have dangerous qualities. In my opinion the shorter one is going to be the one you don't know is their until its too late. Its easier to conceal, thus probably in all practicality the more dangerous.

7sm

Many of the knife defenses I practice involve a set up move, a knife immobilization technique, and then a defang the snake type of technique which sometimes involves palming the back of a blade, or the handle in order to strip it away. What do your empty hand knife defenses look like?
 

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