Discussion in 'Wing Chun' started by Marnetmar, Oct 12, 2014.
Wing Chun Sui Nim Tao In Details - YouTube
Back in the 80s I new a guy through my Escrima training who had trained WC with Eddie Chong. He gave me a copy of Chong Sifu's long pole book (very different from the way we do it). Unfortunately, I never drew him out to much about Chong's WC. Back then I was fairly new to WC and knew way too much to ask questions from others. More's the pity.
Anyway, I'm short of time right now and haven't watched the whole clip. Does anybody know what the deal is with him withdrawing his SNT wu-sau up in front of his mouth with "the fingertips at the nose". That looks very odd, even dangerous to me. It not only puts the hand right in front of his face, but it also causes his elbow to bend sharply, eliminating the forward angle that gives the wu-sau structural strength.
Watch out. I like to criticize forms, and think I know what I'm talking about.
His wu-sau looks strange to me too. He seems to be bending it at the elbow and just arcing it back towards his nose. That will just collapse into your face.
An interesting thing happens in the "tan-gan(/jam)-tan-hyun-low palm" section. He doesn't appear to be doing a gan-sau, so I can only guess that he is using jam-sau there, as some lineages do. But he's just pushing down with the hand, and not sinking with the elbow, so it doesn't look like a proper jam-sau either...
But hey, I've seen far worse! I visited a WC guy last week who's SNT was literally all over the place. I don't do my form quickly in the least, but he made such big movements that I had to wait at each section for him to catch up...
Can you give an example? Usually when I see people are doing big crazy movements they're also going way too fast
Mostly agree with Argus on this.
Like Argus, I've seen worse. There are some probably feel that same when watching me.
There are several movements and positions that are different from what we do. Argus has already posted some of them. He also brings his hand, or wrist, or elbow at times against his body. We never allow them to be closer than a fist distance from the body. In his Jum Sao it appears to be more of a downward chopping movement rather than a sinking of the elbow and arm into the center. When punching we also have more abduction of the wrist driving the lower knuckles forward.
That's true. He actually went at a moderate pace though, which I was just matching.
It's just that he made very large movements with his hands rather than keeping them tight, economical, and on the center. For example, his wu-sau went all the way down to his waist (???), and in the tan-gan-tan section, his hands followed huge arcs rather than staying tight. Just a lot of things like that. There were also a number of little random added movements that made no sense, given his lineage.
I just don't get why people want to take a good form and make it all wonky.
Well, without more background info its tough to say either way.
However, keep in mind that some peoples' forms contain more / less / different shapes. Doesn't necessarily make them or their wing chun "wonky".
Was this somebody you happened to meet up with to train / practice wing chun? What lineage is he? (Might help the conversation if we knew a bit more). Thx Argus.
When people don't have or stick with a good teacher and start importing stuff from here and there all
kinds of variations can occur. Contemporary wing chun seem to contain all kinds of variations.
EC was a student of well known student of the late Leung Shun. Had a falling out with his teacher.
Then went to Pan Nam whose wing chun was a mishmash of hung ga and wc- then had a falling out with
Pan Nam. So he has been around the block. So it goes.
Well, that's the thing. I know his lineage, and I know what his forms are supposed to look like better than he does... I have seen more exotic movements in non-Yip Man lineages, but this was a Yip Man lineage - moreover, one I'm familiar with - and the additions did not look like anything I've seen even outside of YM lineages before.
This is actually the second time I've met someone like this. The other guy claimed to be a student of one of Yip Chun's students, and his forms were nothing like Yip Chun's -- with sections completely changed and several movements even missing. Not to mention really sloppy and fast chisau.
I've come to be pretty discerning when it comes to people who proclaim to know and teach Wing Chun. In several cases now, I've found them no more -- or even less -- qualified to teach than myself, and that's saying a lot considering I've hardly been at this two years.
No he didn't.
Eddie chong also has pak mei sets so that might carry over and influence his personal WC but what he does teach is Pan Nam WC.
For an interesting diversion, look at yip chun and yip ching forms. Even between them, there are differences. (Go figure) hahahah
P.S. The WC guy htat i have met that was a student of Eddie chong seemed to understand WC concepts pretty well so Eddie Chong had to be a pretty good instructor and much better of an instructor then anybody that studied WC for two years.
Yes, you may well be right about that. Here's the bio from his website: About | Chong's Wing Chun & Bak Mei Kung Fu Association About|
Now about odd movements in the forms. I'd never dismiss them them until I'd heard the rationale behind them. "Right" and "wrong" often depends on context.
I commend you on being open minded enough to wonder why he does the technique the way he does with out ignoring it.
From my personal exp in Wng Chun ive found that a high percent of the WC practitioners don't put too much thought or value on why different style of Kung fu use their methods of mechanics to generate power or even why a different style of WC does his individual technique the way he does it.
I've had the opportunity to take a bit of WSL WC, Meet up with the Pan Nam WC practitioner that is around my residence and also attend a WC school that contained a mixed up WC style and sadly the only one of those WC practitioner that was open minded was the mixed up WC style instructors.
I probably would still be at the WC School if it wasn't for the fact that I know that WC practitioners are pretty caught up on lineage (like all martial styles) and that if I dedicated many years to training with this group it would not be respected since it didn't come from a true traditional lineage of WC.
The perks of the school was they did allot of Chi Sau and were open minded when it came to WC but the negatives of the forms being a mix of two different instructors lineage would make any WC practitioner go what style is that and then the criticizing would begin.
Sorry about my rambling on about this subject but I just wish the WC culture was a bit different then it is now because it is a very effective method of Kung Fu.
Looking at the SLT of another lineage and criticizing the movements and angles can be a fools game (sorry, Argus ;-), especially when dealing with a practitioner who might have very deep and broad experience. At various times I have found myself thinking that the movements of a martial artist looked really bogus, only to eat my words when I actually touched hands with him.
The real special sauce of SLT isn't even the external elements of angles and such, but rather in the internal elements of tension, intention and the like.
These things are much harder to see and judge in person, let alone from a youtube video.
I don't know anything about Eddie Chong and his style, and yeah, that high wu sao sure looks goofy. But I wouldn't say that to his face until I touched his hands
Has it really come to that??
I'm not sure whose respect you're looking for but I would hope that it would be earned based entirely on your skills and abilities not on the picture of you standing behind your seated sifu that you hang on the wall.
There is a lot of young sifus out there who have excellent lineage cred, but only learned for a short time with the esteemed grand master and have tried to fill in the holes of their knowledge with other stuff that they have learned along the way, or worse, with stuff that they make up.
The best way to really tell where your chosen school is at, skill wise, is to take every opportunity to roll with students from other schools and judge for yourself.
"Mixing and matching" can be good or bad, depending on who is doing it, what experience they have, and how good they are. Eddie Chong has been around for a long time, produced good students, and has received good feedback through the years from various people. So even though I've never met or trained with him personally, I'd feel comfortable recommending him to someone looking for a teacher. After all, new lineages have arisen in the past in China when someone combined things from different teachers and declared themselves "grandmaster." I seriously doubt Chan Wah Shun's son was teaching exactly what he learned from his father. Look at all the variations in the "Weng Chun" lineages from some mixing with Hung family arts. So why is it any different when the guy doing the mixing or combining happens to live in the USA? Eddie Chong has been around long enough that he could now legitimately declare himself "Grandmaster" of "Chong Wing Chun." Others have done it!
I could care less about respect from others because like you said my abilities would show if I understood WC and unfortunately the picture of that hang in your school along with the lineage matters greatly when it comes to making a successful school.
What I do understand is the fact that if I was a more skilled WC practitioner that wanted to start teaching WC the school most likely not do as well as a less skilled Sifu from a more respected WC lineage in the same town.
Its the political and business aspect that makes lineage so important and as somebody that would like to make a small martial arts club when I retire I have to choose wisely on which Style/Lineage to dedicate my time to.
Unfortunately this is what the politics and business aspect has turned MA in to for example every MA forum has a ton of thread that involve WC lineage or sifu bashing.
Separate names with a comma.