E Sip Sa Bo and Oh Sip Sa Bo hyungs

Discussion in 'Tang Soo Do' started by SahBumNimRush, Sep 15, 2011.

  1. SahBumNimRush

    SahBumNimRush Master of Arts

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    I am curious how many of the TSDers on here use the forms E Sip Sa Bo and/or Oh Sip Sa Bo in their dojang/association. We do not use these forms, and I recently found out that they are Okinawan/Japanese forms.

    E Sip Sa Bo = Nijushiho/Niseishi

    Oh Sip Sa Bo = Gojushiho

    If you do perform these hyungs, how do you like them, and what in particular in application do you like about them?
     
  2. dancingalone

    dancingalone Grandmaster

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    I can't speak from the TSD perspective, but Niseishi was apparently a kata that Higashionna, Kanryo of Naha-te knew. His most famous student, Miyagi, Chojun, who founded Goju-ryu karate did not pass on this kata in his syllabus. However, certain passages of Niseishi are evocative of the Gekisai forms Miyagi designed for public education usage. For that reason, I think there's a more than decent chance that Miyagi had studied a version Niseishi at one point, and one could perhaps glean something from viewing examples of Gekisai bunkai if they are easier to find being considered basic kata.
     
  3. JWLuiza

    JWLuiza Black Belt

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    I have practiced both and love them. Ee Sip Sa Bo has great close-in fighting applications and Oh Sip Sa Bo has some fun throwing applications as well. Plus the wrist lock/trip/eye poke application.
     
  4. mattkulma

    mattkulma Yellow Belt

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    I have never heard of E Sip Sa Bo. However, in the Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan we do use Oh Sip Sa Bo and it is a 5th Dan Hyung. It looks very enjoyable to me and I can't wait to learn it when I get my Oh Dan.
     
  5. Makalakumu

    Makalakumu Gonzo Karate Apocalypse

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    They are both very interesting forms. I consider these to be of the "number" form variety. Usually, number forms are more closely tied to naha-te systems of karate. I've always wondered if the numerology was meaningful. In my studies of karate, I would say naha-te is probably my weakest link. I'm thinking that since 54 is half of 108, it all has something to do with Buddhism.
     
  6. cdunn

    cdunn 2nd Black Belt

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    Our dojang teaches Ohsipsabo to people much higher rank than me. Can't really comment, therefore. :p
     
  7. DMcHenry

    DMcHenry Blue Belt

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    I do these and enjoy them.
     
  8. Makalakumu

    Makalakumu Gonzo Karate Apocalypse

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    Does anyone think that these two forms are related? Why?
     
  9. SahBumNimRush

    SahBumNimRush Master of Arts

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    I'm really not sure, but would be interested in knowing myself.. .

    I do know that versions of these forms are practiced in Shotokan, and tracing back further several Okinawan styles practice versions of these forms too.

    Ryuei Ryu, Okinawa Kenpo, Shorin Ryu (Kobayashi), and Bugeikan all practice Gojushiho (O Sip Sa Bo) and Niseishi (Nijushiho/ E Sip Sa Bo).

    Given that atleast 4 lineages of Okinawan arts practice these forms, it is possible that they are of similar origin, but as I do not know these forms nor do I know much of these arts, I really cannot speak to their common origins.

    Maybe someone else on here can shed some light on the subject. Perhaps Master McHenry?
     
  10. DMcHenry

    DMcHenry Blue Belt

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    Sorry, don't know the history behind these forms. I remember reading up on them long ago but don't remember specifics.
     
  11. Makalakumu

    Makalakumu Gonzo Karate Apocalypse

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    Here some info on wikipedia

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nijūshiho

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gojushiho

    In Patrick McCarthy's version of the Bubishi, he relates this Gojushiho back to Chinese Kung Fu styles as well. It's implied that it's part of a Black Tiger style.

    It would be really cool to see what these kung fu styles were really like. I think it's also important to understand that these kata might be whole styles in themselves.
     
  12. OldKarateGuy

    OldKarateGuy Green Belt

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    I learned both forms in JKA shotokan. WHen I moved to a new city, and changed styles to TSD, I found that many of the shotokan forms are found in TSD (well, WTSDA anyway), with mostly minor (and predictable style) variations. I do not think that WTSDA has E Sip Sah Bo, but it definitely has Oh Sip Sah Bo (Gojushiho Sho or Dai, depending on your organization). But in WTSDA, Oh Sip Sah Bo is restricted to 7th dan or 6th dan preparing to test. As a result, you will never see this form in competition, and frankly, becaus it is so rare, there is very little expertise and also some variation in how it is performed.

    By the way, in JKA, for most kata usually the "Dai" ("major") form would be seen more than the "Sho" ("minor") version. Gojushiho is I think the exception, as the Sho form is more popular in competition and is considered an advanced form.

    As to whether they are similar, I think not. However, they may (probably?) have both originated in Okinawa. I think that Gojushiho is more of the line heian/bassai/kanku, while Nijushiho is more similar to Tekki/Jitte (Naihanchi/SipSoo). In other words, what some might call Shuri-te and Naha-te, or Northern China vs Southern China, agile vs power, that kind of thing. The names sound similar, only because they describe "x number steps". In practice, they have very different feelings (at least in Shotokan, can't speak for other styles).

    "...when a high-ranking JKA instructor announced 'Gojūshiho Dai' ..."

    I always wondered how that Gojushiho Sho and Dai thing happened among the Japanese groups. If true, this is pretty funny. Even if of uncertain validity, it makes a very good story.

    I like both forms, and especially Gojushiho. There is a great deal of expansion and contraction, gravity then speed, etc. As I said, an advanced form, long and quite beautiful when done by a good karateka. (I tend to like forms generally, for both the beauty of execution and the fighting applications within. But if a form seems lacking in practical applications, as some seem to, that's still Ok with me. Forms are traditional arts forms).
     
  13. Muwubu16858

    Muwubu16858 Green Belt

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    Who stated that Niseishi was a Higaonna form? Juhatsu Kiyoda, who was Miyagi Chojun's senior, stated that the only empty handed kata passed down from Higaonna Sensei were Sanchin, Seisan, Sanseiru and Pechurin(Suparimpei). Higaonna's first teacher, Aragaki, was the source of the Niseishi we have today, but its uncertain whether Higaonna ever learned this kata at all, since the details of his training with Aragaki Sensei are not known. Other well known Aragaki kata are Woon Soo(Unsu), Sochin and a version of Seisan.
     
  14. dancingalone

    dancingalone Grandmaster

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    It's mere speculation. I've participated in a few conversations over the years in person and online about it. It's one of the more common questions Goju-ryu people have when they start looking around at other systems, wondering why Goju-ryu does not have the all the Aragaki kata, including Niseishi. I'm inclined to believe that Higaonna did know and teach this one to Miyagi, but I admit I've come across no real documentation to show it, and the link between the Gekisai forms and Niseishi could come from a common Naha-te root rather than the Gekisai flowing directly frm Niseishi.

    Yep, that pretty much sums it up what has been actually told and written down.
     

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