Drawing blade under pressure?

Discussion in 'Knife Arts' started by frank raud, Oct 7, 2016.

  1. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2009
    Messages:
    14,740
    Likes Received:
    3,233
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Location:
    Pueblo West, CO
    And... the faster you draw, the less time you need, which means you'll have the weapon in hand sooner.
    Practicing to draw slowly is simply foolish.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  2. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    15,538
    Likes Received:
    3,452
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Like running across a road rather than walking. It is safer.
     
  3. frank raud

    frank raud Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2006
    Messages:
    1,311
    Likes Received:
    250
    Trophy Points:
    108
    Location:
    Ottawa, ON
    So, faster is better?
     
  4. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    15,538
    Likes Received:
    3,452
    Trophy Points:
    308
    With crossing a road faster is generally frowned upon.( explosives as well)

    It is also one of the lessons they tried to drive home during that surviving edged weapons video a bit. That instead of being a quick draw. you create space for a secure draw.



    And.(but I cant find the video) I am pretty sure if you watch a dog brothers fight, where they go for sneaky folders. They tend to be pretty slow coming out as well.

    So intuitively I can see why faster is considered better. I was wondering if that was really the case.
     
  5. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2004
    Messages:
    27,619
    Likes Received:
    1,465
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Las Vegas, Nevada
    In IRT we practice regularly how to draw firearms, knifes, flashlights, etc. You need to spend time doing this in training to have a chance to make it work when you need it. Along with the system of practicing drawing and deploying your tool you have to also add in movement such as getting off line, retreating, closing, etc. One thing I have personally found is that practicing your draw under stress is important. Scenario training is very good for this as you do not know what is coming or if it is essential that you deploy your tool and you are typically behind the opponents potential action. Drawing and deploying while performing an exercise also helps in this process. Try doing pushups and then performing a draw or run sprints and then perform a draw, etc. I do this weekly with the knife but also with firearms training. Trying to mimic the adrenal response!
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  6. Juany118

    Juany118 Senior Master

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    May 22, 2016
    Messages:
    3,114
    Likes Received:
    1,045
    Trophy Points:
    213
    Precisely. Here is the thing, it's not speed, it's how fluid you are with your draw that effects a potential drop, whether it be with a knife or a gun. You only get fluid if you practice. Do "dry fire" training without pressure and then work in pressure testing. Start slow, be fluid. Speed it up as fast as you can, while maintaining fluidity. Takes time but it works.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Juany118

    Juany118 Senior Master

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    May 22, 2016
    Messages:
    3,114
    Likes Received:
    1,045
    Trophy Points:
    213
    I do the exact same thing. My Department has its own outdoor range and a co-worker and I go there. 25 yard sprint>drop do 15-20 push-ups fast, stand up...don't draw until the other says "threat!!!"
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Juany118

    Juany118 Senior Master

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    May 22, 2016
    Messages:
    3,114
    Likes Received:
    1,045
    Trophy Points:
    213
    The part of that video isn't so much about making distance as opposed to maintaining safe distance from the beginning. Once a person is accelerating to a full sprint to get you, you are pretty much SOL if you are caught unprepared within a certain radius. The movement only comes in, explicitly in that video, if you are already at a distance where you can draw your weapon. In short it is all about maintaining, not creating proper reactionary gaps.

    Now every encounter is different but if you are in a scenario where a trained fast draw isn't possible then, at least imo, a slow deliberate draw isn't going to be really possible either.

    As Dirty Dog said, in different terms, if you are under assault you have one of two options... deploy the weapon as fast as it can be accounting for your skill/training level. Another option (if it workable) is to keep using both hands to defend yourself because in drawing the weapon you have taken one out of the equation. I believe you yourself has said it takes only a couple good hits to the face to take someone down. In my experience the longer you are short that one hand the more time you give the assailant to get solid shots in.

    I said "if workable" because obviously if the assailant has a gun and has some range, using your hands to defend yourself isn't an option.
     
  9. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    15,538
    Likes Received:
    3,452
    Trophy Points:
    308
    That cop who was getting drowned or something then shot the guy. Was that because of a successful fast draw?
     
  10. Juany118

    Juany118 Senior Master

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    May 22, 2016
    Messages:
    3,114
    Likes Received:
    1,045
    Trophy Points:
    213
    And what the heck does that have to do with the point, which boils down to "fast over slow"? If you are talking about the post I made a while ago btw he didn't shoot the guy, he pulled a knife and stabbed him, my first question still remains. You train to be as fast as you can be while remaining fluid, which means to be in control. If your training prioritizes empty hand then yes I would suggest slow, if however you expect to use weapons I would say train to draw them as fast as possible with fluidity. I really don't see the issue.
     
  11. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    15,538
    Likes Received:
    3,452
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Sorry. This sort of idea.

    "Now every encounter is different but if you are in a scenario where a trained fast draw isn't possible then, at least imo, a slow deliberate draw isn't going to bereally possible either."
     
  12. Juany118

    Juany118 Senior Master

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    May 22, 2016
    Messages:
    3,114
    Likes Received:
    1,045
    Trophy Points:
    213
    Before I answer are you talking about the guy who basically falls back in an effort to create distance and still gets stabbed? I will admit I didn't click your link because after multiple times of viewing I have watched the full video so I can describe each scene. I actually discuss it regularly with the wife. She's a cop too and I want her to study Guro Dan's Kali with me at school (the guy doing the stabbing in the first few scenarios). Almost have her convinced ;).
     
  13. Juany118

    Juany118 Senior Master

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    May 22, 2016
    Messages:
    3,114
    Likes Received:
    1,045
    Trophy Points:
    213
    Every scenario is different because you could have someone bigger and stronger that they have you so you can't strike them BUT you can slowly draw a weapon they are unaware of... Vs the guy simply punching the crap out of you and you have to move quick. Think the 100lbs girl pinned down by the 200 lbs guy for a date rape...she may have the luxury of a slow draw... Two equally sized matched opponents, that luxury doesn't exist imo.
     
  14. Justin Chang

    Justin Chang Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2016
    Messages:
    81
    Likes Received:
    32
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    I agree completely, and with training you become more fluid which will make you faster. One of my instructors has a phase that has always stuck with me "Slow is fast, slow is smooth, smooth is fast, slow is fast".
     
  15. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2009
    Messages:
    14,740
    Likes Received:
    3,233
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Location:
    Pueblo West, CO
    This has been a truism in the world of auto racing for as long as I can remember.
     
  16. TSDTexan

    TSDTexan Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2015
    Messages:
    1,495
    Likes Received:
    326
    Trophy Points:
    123
    Practice drawing your weapon so many times that it becomes hard wired, when you have done so, it stops becoming something you think about doing and becomes a function of your will.

    It is on the order of 10000 times.
    For 6 months, spend one hour endlessly deploying your weapon slowly, with perfect form.
    Perform the exact (progressively faster) in sequence 6 times daily for 5 years. Eventually, it is mapped into muscle memory, starts being an autonomic function, requiring little to no conscious thought to perform.

    A while back I posted a video by Dr. Eagle man from his video series on the human brain.

    In that video a young kid (champion cup stacker) is hooked up to an EEG to measure brain activity as he performs a highly skilled activity.

    At the same time Dr. Eagleman tries to follow him step by step in the same task.

    They show and compare the two levels of brain activity.

    The difference is highly significant.

    Also..
    The young boy started performing his cup stacking kata called “The Cycle” as in the cup stacking cycle, and in the beginning it took him between 120 to 150 seconds perform the task. (2 to 2 & 1/2 minutes)
    After a number of years (and in about 3600 total hours), his practice of the routine had reduced the time down to 5 seconds.
    Even blind folded.

    There is some other amazing gems about thebrain in Dr David Eagleman's series on the human brain. Stuff martial arts should know and inform their training methods.


    Practicing the repeated kata allowed him to shave an incredible amount of time off the performance of the task.


    And also move it from conscious effort to unconscious effort.

    Which has enormous value in a martial art setting. Especially if you hardwire defensive/offensive actions into one’s involuntary response.

    Your body will react to the threat before your conscious mind will have time to consider options.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2016
  17. TSDTexan

    TSDTexan Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2015
    Messages:
    1,495
    Likes Received:
    326
    Trophy Points:
    123
  18. hoshin1600

    hoshin1600 Senior Master

    Joined:
    May 16, 2014
    Messages:
    2,606
    Likes Received:
    1,168
    Trophy Points:
    253
    Just curious TSD texan,,you disagreed with my earlier post. What do you disagree with? Your post and mine both agree to practice a draw for muscle memory.
     
  19. TSDTexan

    TSDTexan Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2015
    Messages:
    1,495
    Likes Received:
    326
    Trophy Points:
    123

    I had to go back and look because I didn't remember that I disagreed with you. Turns out that when I hit the agree button it registered the next button over.

    I have been on my Samsung S7 Active a lot more these days. The buttons are pretty close together on my phone, and I can be really fat fingered at times.

    So no, I don't disagree with you at all.
    I reset it to reflect my actual view.
     
  20. hoshin1600

    hoshin1600 Senior Master

    Joined:
    May 16, 2014
    Messages:
    2,606
    Likes Received:
    1,168
    Trophy Points:
    253
    Ok cool. It was just confusing because your post said everything I agree with.
     
    • Like Like x 1

Share This Page