Dr John La Tourrette

[Chicago Green Dragon]

I was wondering are you familiar with George Dillman the knockout guy.

I have watched a number of his performances and he doesnt hit people that hard and they go black out. In his case one punch knock out works.

With that in mind would you still rather take the slow shot ?

Chicago Green Dragon


:asian:

Speed hitting may be a reality, but it belies a problem Kenpoka have spent years trying to overcome. Mr. Parker was phenom at blasting off high-speed combos with enough force to crack your noggin if he nailed it. Well-meaning students sought to emulate him by shortening the path of momentum of movements, and kenpo became a "slap art", with tournaments and belt tests full of people hitting themselves more ineffectively than they could hit another. It is easy to sacrifice strength and power for speed. It's impressive, too...your moves look cleaner, and you can rifle them off more quickly, making you look that much better than the guy you're standing next to. But it's a farce. Hitting faster DOES NOT equal hitting harder.

Interesting note: In Mr. Parkers black belt classes, he would demo a technique with wide, heavy-handed arcs that landed like hammers, then ask the class to do the same tech he just demo'd. Looking around, the attendees would perform the series correctly, with shortened slappier versions of what Parker did. Did they really think they were doing the same thing? His palm-heel to the chest would knock me back, up into the air and against the wall behind me (I weigh 225); theirs would hit me hard enough to interrupt a train of thought, maybe. But it was quick.

Speed-boy has yet to enter into the body of evidence that his trickery is anything more than the sacrifice of one advantage -- power -- for another -- speed. I would rather stick my chin out to take one from him, than from a slower, larger, and more intense Mike Tyson.

Watch him on video or in person again, and notice how little momentum energy (power) sits behind his strikes. See someone responding like they've been thumped? Remember the Aikido problem...you only get lobbed around the room if you're stupid enough to hold on to the wrist...the recipients are conditioned to comply.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I was wondering are you familiar with George Dillman the knockout guy.

I have watched a number of his performances and he doesnt hit people that hard and they go black out. In his case one punch knock out works.

With that in mind would you still rather take the slow shot ?

Chicago Green Dragon


:asian:

What Dillman does works and anyone can do it; however, it gives you very little margin for error. I would encourage anyone to explore these touch knock outs because they are based on sound principles; however, they are unusefull. I didn't say useless, so save the outrage. :asian:
Sean

 

[Michael Billings]

Mike Casto (Pesilat) and myself, have both experienced these from Joe Lansdale (see joerlansdale.com or his Shen Chuan site, and his latest Shen Chuan Newsletter.) These are 3 different links (by the way, I have bunches of his books and love 'em).

I am getting pretty good at a bunch of the pressure point strikes, some sleepers Mr. LaBounty or Mr. Sepulveda have taught over the years, and I think the pressure points are fun. But as Sean points out, will I be able to hit them in a fight? Well, I will certainly try, but guess what? It doesn't matter, due to the way my Kenpo is structured, I will do damage if I hit near the target I am aiming for, e.g. instead of the cervical vertabrae, I may aim for the base of the occipital, with an angle of incidence different from what I was originally taught. Heck, I have given several of my guys firm taps there and had to catch 'em on the way down ... imagine my surprise ... and I am not being sarcastic. Several are on line here and can speak to it.

I put little store in "No Touch" anything, except major intimidation, but when it is done to me, even if I have never seen it before, if it works, then I have to play with it. It is clear Mr. Parker had this knowledge and used it at demos I saw, I just never had the depth of knowledge to understand what he was pinpointing. Now his story about the 3 famous archers that Mr. Conatser told, and I had heard from Mr. Parker, makes much more sense. The best archer is only as good as what he aims at.

I would argue that it would be difficult in the heat of battle, with my adreneline cranking, to be accurate at anything (been there, done that), but there is no fault - no foul in trying, due to the training I have, what I do, as taught by my teachers works ... boy does it work, I have the bumps, bruises, and broken stuff to prove it. But there is lots of ground to explore, for fun and effectiveness. I am not nearly as young as I used to be, and jump spin reverse cresents are no longer in my repetoir (yes, they used to be), so I guess being sneaky and accurate, more sophisticated maybe, as I continue to try to learn, are what I have to look forward to.

Don't knock it ... until you have been knocked by it. To see is to be decieved, to feel is to believe. It has been an interesting year for me, and I believe more than I used to ... with reservations and a critical eye.

-Michael

 

[arnisador]

I put little store in "No Touch" anything, except major intimidation, but when it is done to me, even if I have never seen it before, if it works, then I have to play with it. It is clear Mr. Parker had this knowledge and used it

Do you mean that Ed Parker used to perform no-touch KOs?

 

[DoxN4cer]

I could have made almost the very same post about Modern Arnis with Remy Presas in place of Ed Parker in each case. And now we have some of the same problems.
QUOTE]

True, true. Could you elaborate on the LaToilet thing? A PM would do me fine.

Tim Kashino

 

[D.Cobb]

Mike Casto (Pesilat) and myself, have both experienced these from Joe Lansdale (see joerlansdale.com or his Shen Chuan site, and his latest Shen Chuan Newsletter.) These are 3 different links (by the way, I have bunches of his books and love 'em).

I am getting pretty good at a bunch of the pressure point strikes, some sleepers Mr. LaBounty or Mr. Sepulveda have taught over the years, and I think the pressure points are fun. But as Sean points out, will I be able to hit them in a fight? Well, I will certainly try, but guess what? It doesn't matter, due to the way my Kenpo is structured, I will do damage if I hit near the target I am aiming for, e.g. instead of the cervical vertabrae, I may aim for the base of the occipital, with an angle of incidence different from what I was originally taught. Heck, I have given several of my guys firm taps there and had to catch 'em on the way down ... imagine my surprise ... and I am not being sarcastic. Several are on line here and can speak to it.

I put little store in "No Touch" anything, except major intimidation, but when it is done to me, even if I have never seen it before, if it works, then I have to play with it. It is clear Mr. Parker had this knowledge and used it at demos I saw, I just never had the depth of knowledge to understand what he was pinpointing. Now his story about the 3 famous archers that Mr. Conatser told, and I had heard from Mr. Parker, makes much more sense. The best archer is only as good as what he aims at.

I would argue that it would be difficult in the heat of battle, with my adreneline cranking, to be accurate at anything (been there, done that), but there is no fault - no foul in trying, due to the training I have, what I do, as taught by my teachers works ... boy does it work, I have the bumps, bruises, and broken stuff to prove it. But there is lots of ground to explore, for fun and effectiveness. I am not nearly as young as I used to be, and jump spin reverse cresents are no longer in my repetoir (yes, they used to be), so I guess being sneaky and accurate, more sophisticated maybe, as I continue to try to learn, are what I have to look forward to.

Don't knock it ... until you have been knocked by it. To see is to be decieved, to feel is to believe. It has been an interesting year for me, and I believe more than I used to ... with reservations and a critical eye.

-Michael

Before I left American Kenpo to train in a Kyusho based system of Kempo, I was told that whilst under adrenal stress, it would be almost impossible for me to target and hit 3 points in a specific sequence.
I used Delayed Sword as an example, and asked why I was being taught to strike the inside of the forearm(Heart & Pericardium), Kick to groin or leg(CV, Spleen, Liver, Kidney and Stomach channels), then strike to the side of the neck(Large intestine, Small intestine, Triple Warmer, and Stomach channels)? With all these points to choose from, if I did the technique as I'd been taught, then how could I miss?
Ed Parker was trained in Dim Mak, don't you think maybe he would have considered pressure points when creating his techniques?

Consider this also, Pressure Points are not the be all, end all of fighting. They are just another tool in the tool box. My actions of self defence are only different to yours in angle of incidence. And in answer to that age old question, "What happens when they don't work?" Basically the same goes for those of us that use Pressure Points, as for those of us that don't, you just keep on hitting until the other guy is stopped.

--Dave

:asian:

 

[dragonchi]

Actually Doc John may be abrasive at times but he does have a lot to offer.. Yes he has studied and done well in many arts because of the different techniques he uses i.e Silva Techniques....self hynosis...huna...energy drills. I know some will think these are crap which is quite alright...The ones that use the drills know they work..

 

[ikenpo]

Actually Doc John may be abrasive at times but he does have a lot to offer.. Yes he has studied and done well in many arts because of the different techniques he uses i.e Silva Techniques....self hynosis...huna...energy drills. I know some will think these are crap which is quite alright...The ones that use the drills know they work..

I’ve always respected the fact that there is an underlying idea that he has studied these topics. On most of his more esoteric videos he always uses some type of chalkboard to write down the information and he also uses a clipboard to make sure he touches on each point. I think that is necessary when you have a lot of information to share, it is easy to get off track. So after the 10 minute commercial about ALL the other material that he sells there are some interesting ideas.

The issue I might have is that all the information is provided in a very static, non-alive environment with a bunch of LaTourrette students that are already enamored with his apparent skill. And as Mr. Siegal mentioned the examination of charkas or meridians come across in a very good “parlor trick” sort of manner. The whole brash, “bend your f*ckin knees” stuff that you see on tape makes you say, “they pay for this crap”, but what do you do when you are in the middle of BFE? I’d say take TKD, but whatever. I do respect the idea of researching different topics, since very few Kenpo instructors publicly do that. Even if it is your crazy Uncle John doing it…we all have one of those crazy Uncle Johns’ right?..lol

In regards to the “speed” issue I think it is clear that Doc John has honed his speed skills to a razors edge, even at his age. The thing about it is that most of his speed is hitting you with the bumper and not with the whole car. There is a clear difference in the speed that he generates vs the speed that Paul Mills generates because one is earth driven and the other appears very slappy. This doesn’t mean he doesn’t know how to focus is energy and drop his tan tien and break you in two it just means he doesn’t apply those power principles to his “speed” technique in my humble unimportant opinion.

One of the coolest techniques out there (that’s been around forever) is Doc’s “meat grinder”, but based on the video and the need to hit a man 11 times in 1 seconds or whatever there is no power generated from torque or marriage of gravity. There is speed and power generated from the arms catching those circular paths of motion that exist and creating momentum and that shouldn’t be discounted, but there could be more without so much focus on speed for speeds sake.

Just my opinions,

jb

 

[Seig]

Jason,
Great post! I think you nailed it with your points. Speed for the sake of speed can be detrimental to good technique.

 

[Emptyglass]

Hi all:

I feel Dr. La Tourette has some good information available and I think his books are a must for any Kenpo and Filipino Martial Artist's library. Check them out and make up your own mind.

Anything else about him is not in my knowledge bank.

Thanks,

Rich Curren

 

[punisher73]

I just thought I would toss in a couple of ideas about Dr. LaTourette.

1). He marketed his "speed training" to lockout styles of karate that had never seen that type of thing before. But, as a lot of people have pointed out..it is par for the course in Kenpo.

2). He markets to a lot of LEO, Military and Merc types of people who probably like the trash talking that he does.

From what I remember of his background he was a 5th deg under Ed Parker, and then moved to the Tracy system and got to either 8th or 9th deg under them. He then went to another kenpo organization after that and got his 10th under their umbrella before he ever started his branch AIKKA or whatever.

One thing I do find interesting about this conversation though is when I have seen it brought up on other forums that aren't kenpo based, the people discredit the speed PERIOD. They don't give reasons on how to increase the power using EP concepts it is always referred to as slapping or "the 3 stooges" technique and they won't even consider it as applicable. It was nice to see a discussion with actual merits of speed techniques instead of arguing on the fact that fighters can hit that fast and hard.

 

[Seig]

I haveheard that argument repeatedly. The people that continually discredit the speed and power of kenpo have no experience with a real and knowledgable kenpo practitioner. A friend of mine owns a local TSD studio, when one of his "new" students (he was a bb elsewhere) moved into the area and started talking trash about kenpo, he sent him to see me. He went back to his instructor and apologized for spouting ignorance in front of the rest of the student body.

 

[Dr John M La Tourrette]

Hi there:

Personally I don't think he's a good person. He's said some things on videos which I think are distasteful. However, his books (the early softbacks) are excellent for any serious Kenpo practicioner. I don't know about any of his Speedman stuff, but his concepts (such as the Color Code of Combat and the Kicking Line) are a must for any serious Kenpo practicioner (or other martial artist) in my opinion.

Hello Mr Curren.

I am a deep kinesthetic, and I do come across harsh. I am a Wood Element, and I come across real pushy.

And I does offend some people, even though I normally do not mean to offend them.

Thank you for the positive talk about the books I wrote.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette

 

[Dr John M La Tourrette]

I just thought I would toss in a couple of ideas about Dr. LaTourette.

1). He marketed his "speed training" to lockout styles of karate that had never seen that type of thing before. But, as a lot of people have pointed out..it is par for the course in Kenpo.

2). He markets to a lot of LEO, Military and Merc types of people who probably like the trash talking that he does.

From what I remember of his background he was a 5th deg under Ed Parker, and then moved to the Tracy system and got to either 8th or 9th deg under them. He then went to another kenpo organization after that and got his 10th under their umbrella before he ever started his branch AIKKA or whatever.

One thing I do find interesting about this conversation though is when I have seen it brought up on other forums that aren't kenpo based, the people discredit the speed PERIOD. They don't give reasons on how to increase the power using EP concepts it is always referred to as slapping or "the 3 stooges" technique and they won't even consider it as applicable. It was nice to see a discussion with actual merits of speed techniques instead of arguing on the fact that fighters can hit that fast and hard.

Thank you.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette

 

[Dr John M La Tourrette]

I’ve always respected the fact that there is an underlying idea that he has studied these topics. On most of his more esoteric videos he always uses some type of chalkboard to write down the information and he also uses a clipboard to make sure he touches on each point. I think that is necessary when you have a lot of information to share, it is easy to get off track. So after the 10 minute commercial about ALL the other material that he sells there are some interesting ideas.

The issue I might have is that all the information is provided in a very static, non-alive environment with a bunch of LaTourrette students that are already enamored with his apparent skill. And as Mr. Siegal mentioned the examination of charkas or meridians come across in a very good “parlor trick” sort of manner. The whole brash, “bend your *****in knees” stuff that you see on tape makes you say, “they pay for this crap”, but what do you do when you are in the middle of BFE? I’d say take TKD, but whatever. I do respect the idea of researching different topics, since very few Kenpo instructors publicly do that. Even if it is your crazy Uncle John doing it…we all have one of those crazy Uncle Johns’ right?..lol

In regards to the “speed” issue I think it is clear that Doc John has honed his speed skills to a razors edge, even at his age. The thing about it is that most of his speed is hitting you with the bumper and not with the whole car. There is a clear difference in the speed that he generates vs the speed that Paul Mills generates because one is earth driven and the other appears very slappy. This doesn’t mean he doesn’t know how to focus is energy and drop his tan tien and break you in two it just means he doesn’t apply those power principles to his “speed” technique in my humble unimportant opinion.

One of the coolest techniques out there (that’s been around forever) is Doc’s “meat grinder”, but based on the video and the need to hit a man 11 times in 1 seconds or whatever there is no power generated from torque or marriage of gravity. There is speed and power generated from the arms catching those circular paths of motion that exist and creating momentum and that shouldn’t be discounted, but there could be more without so much focus on speed for speeds sake.

Just my opinions,

jb

I actually loved your post.

And...

I'd love to "respectfully" and kinesthetically explain to you the difference between what you can "see" of my skills and what you actually "feel" of my speed.

In fact I found it amusing that you used my "metaphor" about a bumper, which I used on my videos back in the late 80's about me. Heck. I was using it about normal Kenpo when the power accelerators are NOT taught.

I know what I now teach is NOT normal Kenpo Karate, but my version of it. And all those who actually train with me love it. And they are very effective with it.

I of course must be brainwashing them.

Sincerely,
Dr. John M. La Tourrette
Ps. I am doing pretty well for an "old guy".

 

[Dr John M La Tourrette]

Actually Doc John may be abrasive at times but he does have a lot to offer.. Yes he has studied and done well in many arts because of the different techniques he uses i.e Silva Techniques....self hynosis...huna...energy drills. I know some will think these are crap which is quite alright...The ones that use the drills know they work..

Thank you.
And, you are right, I do come across abrasive with a certain type of person. Others find me funny. Others find me to be a great trainer of Kenpo Karate and other disciplines.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette

 

[Dr John M La Tourrette]

I've seen Dr LaTourette in action. I was his practice dummy for a demonstration of "Speed Hitting". He instructed me to place my hands 18 inches apart in front of my chest. He said he was going to hit me in the chest before I could clap my hands together.

He hit me THREE TIMES! BAM! BAM! BAM!

Of course I said I wasn't ready...he caught me off guard. So he did it AGAIN. And AGAIN. He did it over and over, because I couldn't beleive what I was seeing (correction: feeling...I didn't see squat.)

Say what you want about the man, but Speed Hitting is a reality.

Who are you?
Thank you.
Dr. John M. La Tourrette
ps. Did you see that youtube speed demo my boy Jack put up?

 

[Dr John M La Tourrette]

Not without structural integrity.
Sean

Really?
How do you know?
How can you verify what you say?
Dr. John M. La Tourrette

 

[Dr John M La Tourrette]

It's a training trick. When I get a cocky prospective new student, I give them a pad to hold against their chest. I then put my arm to the extended position and then have them put their "fast hand" two inches away from where I am going to strike. I then tell them the object is to block my punch or to even touch my arm before I make contact. I then put my hand at my side and tell them I am about to strike, then I do. It's more about the processing speed of the human brain ( stimuli to translation to reaction.) than it is about physical speed. I am totally unimpressed by an 18 inch gap.

I am so amused at people that "claim" they know what I teach and then they give something TOTALLY DIFFERENT that what I teach as what I teach.

I also am totally unimpressed by an 18 inch gap, as I was at your description.

How about a medium range gap? How about a closing gap (DVD "Secrets of Speed Attack") How about speed accelerators (DVD Secrets of Speed Fighting)?

Just curious.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette

 

[Dr John M La Tourrette]

And further more, if you step off the line of attack you really don't have to block. :uhyeah:
Sean

Yes, and if an elephant had wings it still couldn't fly.

Which makes just about as much sense as your statement.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette