Dr John La Tourrette

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by jbkenpo
Why would he say that about one of his 5th degrees? I thought the guys SGM Parker awarded 5th's to were supposed to be pretty good? jb :asian:

Shows how much you know! Rank was a complete different area for him. He had reasons for his reasons for promotions.

LOL...... Some did stink.

:asian:

 

[SingingTiger]

Mr. Conatser, can you give an example of a "reason for a reason"? What would drive a man like Mr. Parker to award rank to someone who stank?

Rich

 

[Michael Billings]

How about someone bringing in 500 new students into the IKKA?

Or how about someone who is opening up a new geographical area for the IKKA and spreading Kenpo ... remember this was a while ago. The IKKA had fragmented to some extent and a bunch of Senior belts, and not so senior moved away from the source. Then in the '80's Mr. Parker re-commited himself to bringing Kenpo back together. It was awesome, and ended all too soon.

There are numerous reasons to promote someone and it is somewhat naive to beleive otherwise. It is not a good thing or a bad thing ... it was Mr. Parker's thing! We could not all see why he did what he did. The ones I shared are commonly known and done with a purpose, and the expectation he would be around a lot longer to correct or guide as needed.

SGM Parker was never accused of being simplistic or naive. He did what he thought was best, or necessary.

How 'bout it Mr. C. You want to go into some of the other reasons?

Oss,
-Michael

 

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
How about someone bringing in 500 new students into the IKKA?

Or how about someone who is opening up a new geographical area for the IKKA and spreading Kenpo ... remember this was a while ago. The IKKA had fragmented to some extent and a bunch of Senior belts, and not so senior moved away from the source. Then in the '80's Mr. Parker re-commited himself to bringing Kenpo back together. It was awesome, and ended all too soon.

There are numerous reasons to promote someone and it is somewhat naive to beleive otherwise. It is not a good thing or a bad thing ... it was Mr. Parker's thing! We could not all see why he did what he did. The ones I shared are commonly known and done with a purpose, and the expectation he would be around a lot longer to correct or guide as needed.

SGM Parker was never accused of being simplistic or naive. He did what he thought was best, or necessary.

How 'bout it Mr. C. You want to go into some of the other reasons?

Oss,
-Michael

Mr. Billings,

Thanks for the history lesson. I'm learning more all the time.(I'm serious)There's still much for me to learn about Kenpo, and it's people involved that lead us to where it is today. Thanks

:asian:

 

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
Shows how much you know! Rank was a complete different area for him. He had reasons for his reasons for promotions.

LOL...... Some did stink.

:asian:

Well,

You know we've had this discussion on this very subject at length for years so I do know. I'm just teasing. Of course SGM Parker brought people on, but I doubt that he ever recruited (I could be wrong) my guess would be that people approached him to join his group. Everybody wants to be on the winning team or with the group with momentum.

But I would wonder if that nickname was used in context after LaTourrette put out the unauthorized Kenpo book that basically used (stole) all of SGM Parkers info. repackaged or if it came in the context after LaTourrette decide to break off from the IKKA and continue with his own AIKKA (American International Karate & Kung fu schools of America).

My old instructor told me about the meeting that took place in the early to mid 80's where people were given the choice to stay with LaTourrette or continue with the IKKA. Of that group the only one that publically stepped away at that time was Berry Benedict (sp), a hard nosed fighter, who now trains under Mr. Sepulveda, as I understand it.

jb:asian:

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by SingingTiger
Mr. Conatser, can you give an example of a "reason for a reason"? What would drive a man like Mr. Parker to award rank to someone who stank? Rich

What Billings said below is basically, Well. right ........!

Originally posted by M. Billings
There are numerous reasons to promote someone and it is somewhat naive to believe otherwise.

We could not all see why he did what he did, the ones I witnessed were done with a purpose, and the expectation he would be around a lot longer to correct or guide as needed.

SGM Parker was never accused of being simplistic or naive.

"He did what he thought was best, or necessary".

Every case was different. He was multi-dimensional about promotions. First off, he never put much weight in any belt..... but rather "THE PERSON" wearing it. That being said, he also had a unique way of putting certain individuals on the "hot seat" by promoting them and then watching them either "step up to the plate" or "try to survive" at that rank when in the presence of another person who was possibly the same rank or lower but obviously had much more skill or knowledge than he/she. It was his way or trying to either motivate, humble, or try to make the individual realize that the "BELT" is worth "NOTHING" unless it is supported by "SOMEBODY" in it that is worth something.

Some actually asked him for rank (something I was taught you NEVER did). There were many reasons/factors such as "It would help my status in my region", "I have students close to me that will need promoted soon", "I am a leader in my area in Kenpo but all the other Instructors at local studios (TaeKwonDo, Hapkido etc.) out rank me as if our art is 2nd rate", etc, etc. I could go on and on and tell you a hundred reasons that people told him.

Well, being an extremely trusting, kind-hearted, generous and loving man, he promoted many with the intent to 1) Advance American Kenpo (trusting that the individual would responded with gratitude, loyalty and actually become super motivated to learn HIS system as he intended & surely keep training and promoting Kenpo which would be an asset), 2) Help out the individual with his needs 3) Lend Credibility with his endorsement thus increasing competitiveness in the general business market increasing Assn. numbers, which would benefit everyone worldwide.
Sadly, it rarely worked out the way that he had hoped for, and then of course he passed away and could no longer keep working with some of these "projects" as he called them, to finish what he alone had started and he alone could finish. Most of these individuals know who they are and when Mr. Parker passed away, rather than band together with other Seniors, most chose to encapsulate themselves and their groups and created their own persona saying that they Studied with Ed Parker (which they did most for only short periods of time) and thus giving credibility to act as independents and become instant Masters.

There are several individuals today that are wearing high ranks that do not get the respect normally rendered or expected, due to exactly "HOW" they acquired their rank. Today in Kenpo the 10th Degree Black is an abomination! Due to what many have done to our system. It is unfortunately a Joke and an embarrassment.

That being said, I am not implying that several of those individuals are not highly skilled, excellent fighters, excellent teachers, have exceptional knowledge on some aspect/s of Kenpo, great individuals, or have been around for many years, or paid many dues, for several have tremendous merits. On the other hand, some are bogus, low ranking, greedy, unskilled opportunists, liars, thieves, that are lacking much knowledge and true credibility. Many have treated Mr. Parker & his system with disrespect and are not deserving of any levity or support. They know who they are and so do most by the popularity they receive when their names come up in conversation.

At least that's my opinion...... I might be wrong.

:asian:

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
What Billings said below is basically, Well. right ........!



Every case was different. He was multi-dimensional about promotions. First off, he never put much weight in any belt..... but rather "THE PERSON" wearing it. That being said, he also had a unique way of putting certain individuals on the "hot seat" by promoting them and then watching them either "step up to the plate" or "try to survive" at that rank when in the presence of another person who was possibly the same rank or lower but obviously had much more skill or knowledge than he/she. It was his way or trying to either motivate, humble, or try to make the individual realize that the "BELT" is worth "NOTHING" unless it is supported by "SOMEBODY" in it that is worth something.

Some actually asked him for rank (something I was taught you NEVER did). There were many reasons/factors such as "It would help my status in my region", "I have students close to me that will need promoted soon", "I am a leader in my area in Kenpo but all the other Instructors at local studios (TaeKwonDo, Hapkido etc.) out rank me as if our art is 2nd rate", etc, etc. I could go on and on and tell you a hundred reasons that people told him.

Well, being an extremely trusting, kind-hearted, generous and loving man, he promoted many with the intent to 1) Advance American Kenpo (trusting that the individual would responded with gratitude, loyalty and actually become super motivated to learn HIS system as he intended & surely keep training and promoting Kenpo which would be an asset), 2) Help out the individual with his needs 3) Lend Credibility with his endorsement thus increasing competitiveness in the general business market increasing Assn. numbers, which would benefit everyone worldwide.
Sadly, it rarely worked out the way that he had hoped for, and then of course he passed away and could no longer keep working with some of these "projects" as he called them, to finish what he alone had started and he alone could finish. Most of these individuals know who they are and when Mr. Parker passed away, rather than band together with other Seniors, most chose to encapsulate themselves and their groups and created their own persona saying that they Studied with Ed Parker (which they did most for only short periods of time) and thus giving credibility to act as independents and become instant Masters.

There are several individuals today that are wearing high ranks that do not get the respect normally rendered or expected, due to exactly "HOW" they acquired their rank. Today in Kenpo the 10th Degree Black is an abomination! Due to what many have done to our system. It is unfortunately a Joke and an embarrassment.

That being said, I am not implying that several of those individuals are not highly skilled, excellent fighters, excellent teachers, have exceptional knowledge on some aspect/s of Kenpo, great individuals, or have been around for many years, or paid many dues, for several have tremendous merits. On the other hand, some are bogus, low ranking, greedy, unskilled opportunists, liars, thieves, that are lacking much knowledge and true credibility. Many have treated Mr. Parker & his system with disrespect and are not deserving of any levity or support. They know who they are and so do most by the popularity they receive when their names come up in conversation.

At least that's my opinion...... I might be wrong.

:asian:

Dennis, why be so vague and ambiguous? If you have an opinion of someone why would you not tell people exactly what you think of them, and tell it to their face, or at least post their name and why you think they either deserve or not deserve the positions they hold? I do, and I'm either rejected or listened to, but at least I'm not scared of expressing my opinion to the one concerned. I hold myself accountable for my deed and word and think persons of our rank should all be, and face the consequenses of our actions, good or bad. Being honest to myself and others is a good feeling for me. I sleep well and have no problems looking in the mirror to see a good person.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
La Toilet

You didn't! See now if I had said it, I'd be in a fight. Why do you always get away with everything? I'm gonna tell!

 

[bdparsons]

"Dennis, why be so vague and ambiguous?"

Because being vague and ambiguous lends to his "mystique" and "credibility". To hell with accountability and having the integrity to back up what your insinuating.

Makes me sick to my stomach.

Bill Parsons

 

[arnisador]

I could have made almost the very same post about Modern Arnis with Remy Presas in place of Ed Parker in each case. And now we have some of the same problems.

I've heard similar things about Masaki Hatsumi and Ninjutsu--particularly the promoting people above their ability in hopes they'll grow into the rank. I have no direct knowledge there though.

 

[Seig]

I could be wrong, and if I am, please correct me. As I understand the system to have been at the time we are speaking of, there was no material after third black. After third, promotion was based largely on your students and your contibutions to the art, such as spreading it. That, if I am correct, could have been a large part of why Mr. Parker promoted some that otherwise may not have been promoted.

 

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by Seig
I could be wrong, and if I am, please correct me. As I understand the system to have been at the time we are speaking of, there was no material after third black. After third, promotion was based largely on your students and your contibutions to the art, such as spreading it. That, if I am correct, could have been a large part of why Mr. Parker promoted some that otherwise may not have been promoted.

Good point,

Keeping things in context. The base curriculum (as we now know it) wasn't solidified until the mid/late-80's from what I've been told (with the publishing of the WOK in II vol 5 in 1987, I guess). So contribution, general skill and what someone could bring on board were probably good justification. Has that really changed very much? Should it have?

jb

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo
Dennis, why be so vague and ambiguous? Clyde

I was answering Singing Tigers question on "my thoughts or opinions" of why Mr. Parker would award ranks to certain types of individuals. There was no need to illustrate names such as an individual that used to live in Las Vegas (or may still).

By the way, I do sleep well at night, and I am outspoken or express my opinion regarding a great many topics, however, I do have a different style than you do. LOL

:asian:

 

[Doc]

"Just because the red show, don't mean that you know."

Ed Parker

 

[Zoran]

Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo
Dennis, why be so vague and ambiguous? If you have an opinion of someone why would you not tell people exactly what you think of them, and tell it to their face, or at least post their name and why you think they either deserve or not deserve the positions they hold? I do, and I'm either rejected or listened to, but at least I'm not scared of expressing my opinion to the one concerned. I hold myself accountable for my deed and word and think persons of our rank should all be, and face the consequenses of our actions, good or bad. Being honest to myself and others is a good feeling for me. I sleep well and have no problems looking in the mirror to see a good person.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

As a general rule, if I have something good to say about someone, I say it publically. If I have something bad to say about a person, I say it to their face privately. I at least "try" to live by those two rules...of course I am human.

GD7's comments were done in a way that allowed him to express his opinions without getting into a bashing/pissing contest. Even though Mr. Conatser does not need my praise, I gladly give it for his post.

 

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by Doc
"Just because the red show, don't mean that you know."

Ed Parker

I like that!

 

[SingingTiger]

Many thanks to Mr. Conatser, Mr. Billings, and others who have shown me reasons that someone like Mr. Parker may have had for promoting someone when "usual" criteria may have been absent.

I don't really understand Clyde's question, since I didn't find Mr. Conatser's answer vague or ambiguous, and I haven't noticed any "mystique" about him. Had I asked about a specific individual I suppose his answer might have been ambiguous, since he didn't refer to anyone specifically; then again, if I'd asked about a specific individual he wouldn't have had to. But whatever. I've never met anyone who posts on this board, and I'm guessing there are conflicts I'm unaware of; I'll be happy to stay on the sidelines!

Rich

 

[Michael Billings]

Hmmm.... I did not read Mr. Conatser's post that way at all. I feel like he filled in a lot of what I did not say. The question he was answering was J. Buggs, and I took a stab at it also ... although I never in my wildest dreams thought the Golden One would ever say I was ".... well right" about any thing :rofl: (just kidding.)

Are yall trying to get him to express criticism of the 10th Degrees out there? I may be missing something here, but there are personal opinions, which maybe Clyde, you don't have a problem putting out there in a public forum ... but I sure would! And there are professional relationship, which can and should lead toward a more unified Kenpo community. I saw Dennis as doing this. We can always find something bad to say about people, but why do it unless it serves a purpose? A good example is the thread about "Buying a Kenpo Black Belt for $900" or "Child Molestation". '

But to say who deserves it and who doesn't does not serve us - the Kenpo community. I personally agree that the rank should be reserved for SGM Parker, not just the Title. The crap about Mike Pick's rank for example and Frank Trejo "letting" Mr. Pick kick him into 10th. So he was a 4th, so what. He is a 10th in his Association. You wanna go test him, be my guest. From what I hear and have seen, his Kenpo rocks. This is from my own experiences and friends like Wes Idol or Marcus Bonfigliano. Who am I to judge? I can have my personal opinion ... but it just does not belong on this public forum, good, bad, or indifferent.

If you want to rant and rave and make it public, start a blog spot and knock yourself out. I may even read it, but it does not have the same impact as a forum post that may convince lots of people new to the Art, that someone is misrepresenting ... especially when they are so much higher ranked than others.

Oh well, so much for harmoneos disagreement. Remember, we have to live with these people and see them at camps and seminars. Just because they do not post does not mean they are not aware of what is being said.

This is not a brown nose thing, but an observations about actions and consequences, and the environment we want it to be in our Kenpo Planet.
:soapbox:
-Michael

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Michael Billings

Are yall trying to get him to express criticism of the 10th Degrees out there? I may be missing something here, but there are personal opinions, which maybe Clyde, you don't have a problem putting out there in a public forum ... but I sure would! And there are professional relationship, which can and should lead toward a more unified Kenpo community. I saw Dennis as doing this. We can always find something bad to say about people, but why do it unless it serves a purpose? A good example is the thread about "Buying a Kenpo Black Belt for $900" or "Child Molestation". '

This is not a brown nose thing, but an observations about actions and consequences, and the environment we want it to be in our Kenpo Planet.
:soapbox:
-Michael

The old saying is everybody has an opinion, and opinions are like anal orifices, some of them stink. If you have a personal opinion of someone and make innuendos to that effect in public, don't try to disguise it. If you have an opinion on someone and don't want it public, don't post anything about it, I believe the saying is "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything". I'm an ask me I'll tell ya guy, the truth according to me, and I don't comment on things I can't verify unless it's prefixed with "this is the rumor" or "I've heard this from so and so, is there any truth to it?" Yes, I'll admit I'm a radical about many issues, I don't try to hide it or be PC with it, it's just my nature. If there are bad things going on in Kenpo I believe it's our job to expose them for what they are. If there are good things going on we need to expose that as well, with equal press. I could care less what anyone thinks of me on these forums, it's just another form of electronic mastery. I care about Kenpo, learning it, teaching it, and making sure students are well cared for in the studio I teach at, and I give of myself for a means to that end in the hope others will follow that example. Just my opinion.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[Michael Billings]

I mostly agree ...

The old saying is everybody has an opinion, and opinions are like anal orifices, some of them stink. If you have a personal opinion of someone and make innuendos to that effect in public, don't try to disguise it. If you have an opinion on someone and don't want it public, don't post anything about it, I believe the saying is "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything". I'm an ask me I'll tell ya guy, the truth according to me, and I don't comment on things I can't verify unless it's prefixed with "this is the rumor" or "I've heard this from so and so, is there any truth to it?" Yes, I'll admit I'm a radical about many issues, I don't try to hide it or be PC with it, it's just my nature.

I also always tell people "Don't ask if you don't want to know."

If there are bad things going on in Kenpo I believe it's our job to expose them for what they are. If there are good things going on we need to expose that as well, with equal press.

I prefer taking my issues directly to the person if I can. As do you probably. I would only expose something negative in a public forum that I felt extremely strong about, and that I thought might really hurt the Art. Why be negative if the impact is minimal?

I could care less what anyone thinks of me on these forums, it's just another form of electronic mastery.

Understood, I do care what people think of me, I would be lying if I said I did not. But primarily it is my peers, students, and friends whose opinion I care about. I will not change something I believe in to be popular or PC.

I care about Kenpo, learning it, teaching it, and making sure students are well cared for in the studio I teach at, and I give of myself for a means to that end in the hope others will follow that example. Just my opinion.

Bravo and Kudos. I agree 100%. There is nothing I have seen you post that I did not respect your opinion and reasons for. I don't always agree, but no big whoop.

We all need to keep having fun, growing and doing our best. (Rah-rah-rah, a bit of self-depricating cheer. I sound like a stinkin' commercial for Kenpo. "You too can master the mystical art and science of Kenpo Karate. For the mere price of a couple of meals at nice restraunts. Have the confidence and skills to protect you and your loved ones, while learning Motion with a Purpose; Kenpo Karate - America's Martial Art: Defense Solutions for you."

-Michael