Double-fist block

[Rough Rider]

What terms do you use for double fist high block / double fist low block? My school uses Kara Momtong Mahki / Kara Arae Mahki. Looking online I only seem to find references to knife hand blocks (Sonnol).

 

[RTKDCMB]

Are you referring to X-blocks? In which case we call them 'X-blocks'.

 

[Danny T]

Vary the timing and it becomes a parry-strike or a parry-parry
Double lapel choke.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Are you referring to X-blocks? In which case we call them 'X-blocks'.

You can call them that but one hand is the leader, the other the helper. Always remember that.

 

[Earl Weiss]

What terms do you use for double fist high block / double fist low block? My school uses Kara Momtong Mahki / Kara Arae Mahki. Looking online I only seem to find references to knife hand blocks (Sonnol).

It would help if perhaps you gave the name of the pattern and perhaps the move number. The description "Double Fist High Block / Double Fist Low Block" can cover a lot of things.

 

[Rough Rider]

No, not X- block. We call that Yeot Pero Mahki.
An example of what I'm talking about is found in Palgwe O-jang. After the initial scissors block, you turn to the left and do a double knife-hand low, followed by a double knife-hand high (Sonnol arae/momtong mahki). The blocks I'm talking about are the same except they have a closed fist. They come later in the form.
After turning toward the front, you do another scissors block followed by double-fist high (in long stance) twice. Later, after turning toward the rear, yet another scissors block followed by double-fist low (back stance) twice.

 

[JowGaWolf]

totally lost. I need a picture or video

 

[Rough Rider]

Perhaps you're not familiar with the Palgwe forms. How about Taegeuk Sa jang? The very first move is double knife-hand high. Every site I checked agrees that this is called "Sonnol Momtong Makki" in Korean. My question is: what would you call it if you did the same move but your hands were closed in fists?

 

[TrueJim]

No, not X- block. We call that Yeot Pero Mahki.
An example of what I'm talking about is found in Palgwe O-jang. After the initial scissors block, you turn to the left and do a double knife-hand low, followed by a double knife-hand high (Sonnol arae/momtong mahki). The blocks I'm talking about are the same except they have a closed fist. They come later in the form.
After turning toward the front, you do another scissors block followed by double-fist high (in long stance) twice. Later, after turning toward the rear, yet another scissors block followed by double-fist low (back stance) twice.

One nitpick: the blocks we're talking about aren't really low and high, they're low and mid-height. But I know the blocks you're talking about.

Steps 25 and 26. Most often I see those called Augmented Low Blocks (kodureo arae makgi).

You can find names for all the techniques for all the Taegeuk/Palgwae/Yudanja forms on the wiki. Palgwae Oh Jang (I diagram the forms using Poomsae Designer as I learn them...which is why the Chang Hon forms probably won't ever get diagrammed by me...maybe someday some ITF-type will tackle that project!)

 

[JowGaWolf]

Perhaps you're not familiar with the Palgwe forms. How about Taegeuk Sa jang? The very first move is double knife-hand high. Every site I checked agrees that this is called "Sonnol Momtong Makki" in Korean. My question is: what would you call it if you did the same move but your hands were closed in fists?

I'm a kung fu guy so I'm not familiar with any of the forms or names. However, I may be familiar with the technique that you speak of as there may be a similar technique in Jow Ga

 

[Rough Rider]

One nitpick: the blocks we're talking about aren't really low and high, they're low and mid-height.

Good point, that's a bad habit throughout my school. I assure you we're not "waving our hands in the air like we just don't care"

Anyway, your chart is in English, and I'm trying to find the Korean terms. It may still be helpful, though. I've been searching "Double-fist", where your chart says "Augmented low block". Maybe this change in terminology will lead me somewhere.

This whole thing started because I wanted to check the pronunciation of "Kara." Some of my instructors say it like "car" with another "a" on the end. Others "roll" the "r" like a Spanish-speaker, and one says "Kata", like the Karate word for forms. So, I started searching web sited that list TKD terms in Korean and couldn't find "Kara Momtong/Arae Makki" anywhere. Since this isn't the first time my school has used terms not commonly found elsewhere in the TKD world, I came here next.

 

[TrueJim]

I don't speak Korean, but from what I understand:

• kodureo = assisted
• arae = low section
• makgi = block

So...Kodureo Arae Makgi = Assisted Low Block, or as we more commonly say it in English, Augmented Low Block. For that poomsae in particular, this book https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Taekwondo-Poomsae-Official-Taegeuk/dp/1880336928 calls it by that same name. (Generally speaking, my Palgwae diagrams are following the terminology and directions of that book.) Of course the middle-height version would be similar: kodureo bakkat makgi (assisted outward block), or if you want to make it explicit that the outer-forearm is being used, kodureo bakkat palmok bakkat magki...I think (assisted outer forearm outward block).

How interesting about "kara" ! I've never heard that word before. I'm afraid I have no idea what that might mean. I even tried typing it in Hangul to see if Google translate would give me something but nope...bubkis. 칼아 카라 ? Nothing. If you find out, I'd love to learn what it means!

 

[Rough Rider]

They tell me that "Kara" means "closed hand" as "Sonnol" means "open hand".

 

[andyjeffries]

I've never heard of kara, so it may be an older term. It's not in the official Kukkiwon terminology text and it wasn't taught to us during our terminology lecture by GM Kwon Hyung-nam on the Master Instructor Course at Kukkiwon about 5 weeks ago.

Son-nal means "hand-blade", describing the blocking/striking portion of the hand.

I believe godureo arae makki is still correct. Arae makki changed to naeryo makki a few years ago, but I think for guarding blocks they still describe the height rather than direction (because the guarding hand doesn't move downwards). I'd need to check the master course book to be sure though (and I don't have it with me).

 

[Gnarlie]

I have heard (old terminology) the middle block referred to as Soodo Makgi (the Korean rendering of the Japanese "Shuto"), and Kara Makgi as in "Karate", meaning empty hand / open hand / Chinese hand depending on who you ask. It's a leftover from Korean Karate and is no longer considered current terminology by most.

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[Rough Rider]

It has nothing to do with Karate, Gnarlie. I only mentioned Karate before to describe the pronunciation. Here's how my instructors explained it:

Sonnol Momtong Mahgi

Sonnol = open or knife hand
Momtong = upper torso
Mahgi = block

Kara Momtong Mahgi

Kara = closed hand or fist
Momtong = upper torso
Mahgi = block

Substitute arae for momtong and it becomes a low block. The blocks are identical except for how you hold your hands.

 

[Gnarlie]

It has nothing to do with Karate, Gnarlie. I only mentioned Karate before to describe the pronunciation. Here's how my instructors explained it:

Sonnol Momtong Mahgi

Sonnol = open or knife hand
Momtong = upper torso
Mahgi = block

Kara Momtong Mahgi

Kara = closed hand or fist
Momtong = upper torso
Mahgi = block

Substitute arae for momtong and it becomes a low block. The blocks are identical except for how you hold your hands.

Tae Kwon Do


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[Rough Rider]

Interesting read. What I took from it is that Kara can be a very general term for hand techniques, rather than the very specific closed fist that I've been taught. Like I said before, this isn't the first time the terminology has been questionable.

 

[andyjeffries]

Mahgi = block

This spelling (and if you pronounce it like that) is definitely incorrect! In Korean it's 막기 which would be romanised as mak-gi, your version would be 마기 which would be more like "smashing", "hitting", "crushing", "breaking".

 

[andyjeffries]

Interesting read. What I took from it is that Kara can be a very general term for hand techniques, rather than the very specific closed fist that I've been taught. Like I said before, this isn't the first time the terminology has been questionable.

Correct, but in Japanese - not Korean.

The Korean words for Kara (depending on the hanja used) are Kong or Tang.