Dojang Etiquette: Students teaching students.

Notaninja

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I am a newcomer to the world of TKD. My background is in aikido.

When I was a student in aikido, we were always told not to instruct or correct our fellow students. Instruction and correction was reserved for black belts. If you were having trouble, you were to figure it out yourself or get a black belt's attention. If your training parrtner was screwing up, you couldn't say anything about it to him. The assumption was that, as a student, you didn't necessarily know everything you thought you knew, especially with regards to aikido, and you could easily give your partner the wrong information or waste time on words that don't end up helping him at all and just delay the resolution of the problem.

I was wondering if this was a thing anyone has ever heard of in taekwondo. I ask because recently a fellow student (an orange belt) corrected me (a white belt) on a stretching exercise (a stretching exercise!). I was initially pretty offended that this lowbie would correct me on this, but then I realized that this was a bit irrational and the same rules in my former aikido dojo probably didn't apply here and might be completely unnecessary with this art.
 

Drose427

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I am a newcomer to the world of TKD. My background is in aikido.

When I was a student in aikido, we were always told not to instruct or correct our fellow students. Instruction and correction was reserved for black belts. If you were having trouble, you were to figure it out yourself or get a black belt's attention. If your training parrtner was screwing up, you couldn't say anything about it to him. The assumption was that, as a student, you didn't necessarily know everything you thought you knew, especially with regards to aikido, and you could easily give your partner the wrong information or waste time on words that don't end up helping him at all and just delay the resolution of the problem.

I was wondering if this was a thing anyone has ever heard of in taekwondo. I ask because recently a fellow student (an orange belt) corrected me (a white belt) on a stretching exercise (a stretching exercise!). I was initially pretty offended that this lowbie would correct me on this, but then I realized that this was a bit irrational and the same rules in my former aikido dojo probably didn't apply here and might be completely unnecessary with this art.

Higher rank.

Simple as that

If you're a private, you still may have to listen to a corporal from time to time

Though this isnt always the case


We have a girl at my school who just got her 1st dan, shes 14.

Im 20 and 1st geup (1st dan is my next rank) and though she outranks me, we both use "sir" and "ma'am" towards each other due to "Age respects the belt, belt respects the age" and when we help teach the tots class and break off into groups, she looks to me for what to do next i.e. we're told drill the kids on kicks, she waits for me to say how I want to do it. It isnt that she hasnt had her fair share on instruction, she just knows I've had considerably more due to my age. They started prepping me to Teach our beginners class when I was a brown tip, so by the time I was a brown belt Id be able to conduct class if they were held over at work or any other reason (although I was 17 at that time)

However, if my instructor needed to, she could be my instructor through forms due to rank discrepancies.

These sort of things happen in dan ranks as well,

At my school, we get stern about respecting ranks, and age regardless of rank

At the end of the day, they know more than you.

They may be a pain in the butt, annoying, younger, older, etc. but curriculum wise the higher rank will generally be more knowledgeable

that said, not every school or association will be as strict about that as we are.

Its also important to remember that there are the rules, then their are the nuances of said rules

But for the most part

(Your rank )+1 > Your rank

higher rank, take it with a grain of salt, "yes sir/ma'am", move on
 
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Notaninja

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I'm not denying that a higher ranking student knows more than me. I think I may not have adequately communicated what I mean.

WHat I mean is that many times a low ranking student will think he knows how to properly execute a technique or how to properly teach a technique when he actually does not.

Since taekwondo is a much more "straightforward" art than, say, aikido, this may not necessarily be a problem in taekwondo, and therefore the aikido convention I described above may not be a thing in taekwondo. I was just curious to know if any taekwondo students had ever heard of this.

If not, then it's good to know that it is not a thing, so I don't have to worry about it.
 

RowdyAz

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Hello there as a general rule of thumb most dojangs /dojos have an order of rank. It doesn't necessarily have to be a black belt who corrects faults. It is good to know other ranks are looking out for you aswell. Whether you accept that as a good thing or bad thing is a personal perception of your own. However, you can take it on board or clarify it with your instructor because different clubs ( not necessarily styles) will have different etiquettes of there own. For example I know of a club where every rank will always bow to a higher rank before raising a question. Different strokes for different folks. I hope this helps a little bit..
 

Dirty Dog

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The senior student may not be perfect, but they're likely closer to it than the junior student.
And it's quite likely that both of them will get further correction as they gain more experience in the art.
 

Earl Weiss

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While your reaction has merit, the intensity is grounded in your background. It is not bad for a higher rank tom offer assistance to a junior and such assistance should be viewed in that spirit. HOWEVER, any advice should be taken with a grain of salt, and the lower the rank offering, the bigger the grain.
 

jks9199

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Different styles and different schools within the style have different practices regarding who can instruct or guide a less experienced student. It can also depend on the specific correction or advice being offered. There's a difference between "we're supposed to be working on X, and you just did Y" and "this is how you do X..." In the particular instance you describe, it sounds like the other student was helping you properly perform the stretch -- which is not at all the same as offering instruction in how to execute a technique.

Recognize the etiquette in your school, and work within it.
 

Danny T

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In my school we all help each other. Rank has nothing to do with it. Often when doing line drills I will after doing the drill a number of times stop the drill and have the people on one side make 1 correction if they see anything from their perspective that needs correcting and then to point out 1 thing that the other person did well. Then we continue the drill and I then have the opposite side do the same. Switch partners and continue. Rank matters nothing it is about each learning to see mistakes or openings and helping the other correct it as well as within themselves. This happens only when I allow it during the training sessions and not just when students are wanting to. Often just doing the drills and practicing the techniques self discovery becomes the best instruction one can receive.
 

Jenna

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I'm not denying that a higher ranking student knows more than me. I think I may not have adequately communicated what I mean.

WHat I mean is that many times a low ranking student will think he knows how to properly execute a technique or how to properly teach a technique when he actually does not.

Since taekwondo is a much more "straightforward" art than, say, aikido, this may not necessarily be a problem in taekwondo, and therefore the aikido convention I described above may not be a thing in taekwondo. I was just curious to know if any taekwondo students had ever heard of this.

If not, then it's good to know that it is not a thing, so I don't have to worry about it.
.. as long as you are sure this is not actually some issue within you that you might be reticent to take any instruction from a peer or contemporary?

Different subject.. though I wonder why TKD you feel is more "straightforward" than Aikido?
 
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Notaninja

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Great question, Jenna. As you know, TKD is a hard striking style and aikido is a soft grappling style. "Straightforward" is addressing the relative complexity and/or subtlety of the two approaches. Just like learning to shoot an attacker is more straightforward than learning to punch and kick them, learning to punch and kick is more straightforward than learning to apply a joint lock. You can get bad instruction in anything, but the likelihood increases as the technical nature increases. Hope that clears it up for you.
 

Buka

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I always liked students helping each other. I like that as both a student and a teacher.

What I see less of these days is teachers helping other teachers.
 

Gwai Lo Dan

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Personally, I look at my fellow students' ability and decide from there whether to seek or accept advice. My first "instructor" was a yellow belt with 15 years of Chinese Martial Arts. We were both university students, and I asked him to practice on weekends. In the end, we hung out many Saturdays and he did more teaching that practising.

My second instance of taking low-belt instruction was a few years ago, where I was 40, and the 20 year old new white belt had 8 years of Hapkido and great kicks. I asked him to show me his tornado kick, and he proceeded to give instructions on doing the kick 3 different ways: going forwards, staying in position, and moving backwards. I had to roll my eyes a few weeks later at the school when the KJN's wife made a comment to him about respecting me as a higher belt. In reality, he was my teacher.
 

RTKDCMB

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Occasionally I will get white belts where one will be trying to correct the other and I would have to say to then to just concentrate just on what they are doing and let me worry about teaching them. I will also tell them that it's good that they want to help that's my job, but they need to learn a bit more first. When doing partner exercises junior belts are usually paired up with more senior belts and they are encouraged to help out their juniors by correcting their technique or helping them to understand a combination or exercise. An instructor or black belt is always just a hand raise away. Usually if I see a senior belt correct a junior belt then I will go over there and check on them and if necessary correct the junior belt myself. Sometimes when we break the class up in to belt groups for patterns we will allow a senior belt to take a belt group if they are confident or competent enough and there are not enough black belts or instructors around.

There is no reason to be offended when another student corrects you. Humility is a virtue. I have been on the other side of your predicament. I was a black belt in RTKD when I left and started doing Hapkido and I corrected another student on his front kick (I told him to tuck his leg in more at the chamber) He responded by saying something along the lines of "i can show you how good my front kick is if you want" with a threatening tone.Now I was not an instructor in HKD so I may have spoken out of turn and he was offended but he was a bit out of line.
 
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Notaninja

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I was a black belt in RTKD when I left and started doing Hapkido and I corrected another student on his front kick (I told him to tuck his leg in more at the chamber) He responded by saying something along the lines of "i can show you how good my front kick is if you want" with a threatening tone.Now I was not an instructor in HKD so I may have spoken out of turn and he was offended but he was a bit out of line.

And you didn't take him up on his challenge? I don't think I would have been able to contain my excitement lol.
 

drop bear

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It is a tricky balance. I will mention basic stuff. But get clarification on others.

I don't care if people correct me. I do stuff wrong sometimes. Good on them for picking it up.
 

TrueJim

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At the school that my son and I attend, a lot of emphasis is placed on developing leadership skills among the students - the head of our school places a ton of emphasis on this. The class often breaks into small groups for various lessons, and often one student in a small group is designated by the instructors as the leader for that group. The leader is never lower rank than the other people in the group, but they're not always black belts either. Also, for leading the whole class in warmups, sometimes a lower rank student (but not TOO low) will be asked to lead the entire class in the warmups, again to help develop the leadership skills. We also have a special leadership team and an extra (mandatory) leadership class each week for those on the leadership team. The leadership classes covers two topics generally: techniques for being a better teacher/coach/leader, and then also subtleties of taekwondo techniques that the head of our school wants to make sure the leadership team is getting just-right. (For example this morning we had to do front snap kicks while facing a folding chair, seat toward us, to make sure we were getting our knees way up before the kick and keeping our knees up in the follow-through.)

And then more informally, we all often help each other in class, regardless of rank. I can think of plenty of instances where a lower rank student who's particularly good at some specific technique has helped a higher rank student (me included) in getting better at that technique. Conversely, I can't think of any examples of where somebody with a bad technique has tried to incorrectly coach others. You would think that might happen sometimes, but I can't recall an instance of it.
 

drop bear

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I think it may matter more if the school is micro managed. So for us I don't have to fight like my coaches. There is large grey area. But if there is one particular method being taught then it may need to come from one source.

Potentially akido works like that and tkd less so?. I don't know.
 

Gerry Seymour

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I'm not denying that a higher ranking student knows more than me. I think I may not have adequately communicated what I mean.

WHat I mean is that many times a low ranking student will think he knows how to properly execute a technique or how to properly teach a technique when he actually does not.

Since taekwondo is a much more "straightforward" art than, say, aikido, this may not necessarily be a problem in taekwondo, and therefore the aikido convention I described above may not be a thing in taekwondo. I was just curious to know if any taekwondo students had ever heard of this.

If not, then it's good to know that it is not a thing, so I don't have to worry about it.
IMO, the whole idea that a student can't help another student assumes that one cannot have any useful input until reaching a breakpoint. I find that highly questionable. Will a low-ranking student always get it right? No, but they are more likely to be right than not about what they correct someone on. In my experience, when students correct each other, they are usually repeating something they heard from the instructor. They usually get it 50-80% correct, and more correct than the person they are helping.

I probably allow too much of this in my program. I've seen some that don't allow enough (again, IMO). There's a happy medium where students spend most of their time working things out with little or no talking, and help each other when they get stuck until an instructor or senior student can help.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Occasionally I will get white belts where one will be trying to correct the other and I would have to say to then to just concentrate just on what they are doing and let me worry about teaching them. I will also tell them that it's good that they want to help that's my job, but they need to learn a bit more first. When doing partner exercises junior belts are usually paired up with more senior belts and they are encouraged to help out their juniors by correcting their technique or helping them to understand a combination or exercise. An instructor or black belt is always just a hand raise away. Usually if I see a senior belt correct a junior belt then I will go over there and check on them and if necessary correct the junior belt myself. Sometimes when we break the class up in to belt groups for patterns we will allow a senior belt to take a belt group if they are confident or competent enough and there are not enough black belts or instructors around.

There is no reason to be offended when another student corrects you. Humility is a virtue. I have been on the other side of your predicament. I was a black belt in RTKD when I left and started doing Hapkido and I corrected another student on his front kick (I told him to tuck his leg in more at the chamber) He responded by saying something along the lines of "i can show you how good my front kick is if you want" with a threatening tone.Now I was not an instructor in HKD so I may have spoken out of turn and he was offended but he was a bit out of line.
Yes, this is part of that fine line of deciding where a student can be of help to another. A white belt who has been training for many weeks can almost certainly help a new student with a stretch or to remember the sequence of a technique, but they are unlikely to be able to properly correct form or principles.
 

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