Does this actaully work for Self Defense

[ziason]

I have been studing SKK for several years now in a local Villari School and I am currently a Blue Belt. I have to ask, Does this actually work for self defense? Some of the techniques I know can be effective, but a great deal of what I have seen, seems unpractical. In addition to my class training and seminars I have attended, I have the Villari DVD set White to Black Belt, and I must say it is not that impressive. It is all too choreographed. Many of the moves seem much too long and compilcated to be efective in a real fight. Since Villaris stresses that this is supposed to be self defense, I keep trying to evaluate what I'm being taught with a critical eye toward practical application, and many times it comes up short. I'd like to get some feedback from other people. Has anyone here ever actaully used any of this to defend themselves, and if so how well did it work?

 

[Floating Egg]

I know very little about the martial art that you practice, but if I were you, I'd trust my instincts about the self-defense portion.

 

[Drac]

If a technique is applied properly based on the type of attack it will work, reguardless WHAT system/discpline it is taken from...My 2 cents...

 

[MJS]

I have been studing SKK for several years now in a local Villari School and I am currently a Blue Belt. I have to ask, Does this actually work for self defense? Some of the techniques I know can be effective, but a great deal of what I have seen, seems unpractical. In addition to my class training and seminars I have attended, I have the Villari DVD set White to Black Belt, and I must say it is not that impressive. It is all too choreographed. Many of the moves seem much too long and compilcated to be efective in a real fight. Since Villaris stresses that this is supposed to be self defense, I keep trying to evaluate what I'm being taught with a critical eye toward practical application, and many times it comes up short. I'd like to get some feedback from other people. Has anyone here ever actaully used any of this to defend themselves, and if so how well did it work?

I trained in the Villari system up to Brown, before my instructor changed to Parker. To answer your question: Yes, applied correctly, the techniques will work. I think that in every system, you'll find at least a few techs. that will leave you wondering or perhaps, not wanting to do them. Another thing to remember, is that these are instructional tapes, so of course, the entire tech. is going to be taught. In a real situation, chances are, we may just get off a few moves.

My suggestion would be to take a tech. and really start to break it down. Having an understanding of the tech. is important. You should also make sure you're adding in some resistance to your training. If, during practice, your 'attacker' is just standing there, letting you do the moves, you're not really getting the best feel for the way the tech. will be applied under pressure.

Mike

 

[bill007]

I have been studing SKK for several years now in a local Villari School and I am currently a Blue Belt. I have to ask, Does this actually work for self defense? Some of the techniques I know can be effective, but a great deal of what I have seen, seems unpractical. In addition to my class training and seminars I have attended, I have the Villari DVD set White to Black Belt, and I must say it is not that impressive. It is all too choreographed. Many of the moves seem much too long and compilcated to be efective in a real fight. Since Villaris stresses that this is supposed to be self defense, I keep trying to evaluate what I'm being taught with a critical eye toward practical application, and many times it comes up short. I'd like to get some feedback from other people. Has anyone here ever actaully used any of this to defend themselves, and if so how well did it work?

Did you experience what is call the Dragon Circle?

 

[ziason]

Yes, we use the dragon circle in training. Where are you leading?

 

[HKphooey]

Yes, we use the dragon circle in training. Where are you leading?

Well, do the techniques work for you in the Dragon Circle? Only you can answer your question with some reality-based testing.

I think we have all asked ourselves the same question.

 

[ziason]

I trained in the Villari system up to Brown, before my instructor changed to Parker. To answer your question: Yes, applied correctly, the techniques will work. I think that in every system, you'll find at least a few techs. that will leave you wondering or perhaps, not wanting to do them. Another thing to remember, is that these are instructional tapes, so of course, the entire tech. is going to be taught. In a real situation, chances are, we may just get off a few moves.

My suggestion would be to take a tech. and really start to break it down. Having an understanding of the tech. is important. You should also make sure you're adding in some resistance to your training. If, during practice, your 'attacker' is just standing there, letting you do the moves, you're not really getting the best feel for the way the tech. will be applied under pressure.

Mike

How does the Parker system compare? I find even in trying to use some of the techniques in sparring practice that I can only get part of it executed. They always emphasize timing and distance, and it seems in a real situation you don't have as much as you need of either to execute all the techniques. I have previous experience in the military in policing and security situations. I find some of the basic techniques familiar and practical, but then I learn something more advanced and I just have to stop and look and say, no way I'll ever be to accompl;ish all that in a real fight. It just seems more practical to learn all the basic elements and be able to apply them as the situation dictates rather than some long combination. Maybe I just don't see the whole picture yet, but I'm getting up there in years, and I want to be sure I'm not wasting my time mastering something that will fail me when I really need it. The thing with the videos that bothers me is that it's just to staged. I mean I have seen other people demonstrate things from other styles and it look like they are actually performing the technique, but in our classes and in the video it's more like ok, I'll kick you now and you fall here, etc. It just seems to me an effective technique should work wothout the opponents participation, in fact in spite of their resistance.

 

[CTKempo Todd]

Yes and No...

A punch is a punch and a kick is a kick...develop them well

Now having said that, the techniques WILL work in parts not as a whole..

For example, combination 3..
This teaches you to get on the outside, timing for a straight right hand etc...VERY applicable in a self defense situation..
Will the rest of it fall into place like you practice?...No of course not..however chances are over the course of your training you will learn additional scenarios and positions that can be partially applied similiar to what combination 3 teaches you...

There are scenarios in the techniques taught in SKK that I simply do NOT like or agree with from the start...
The 'just fall down' part of combination 4...Why not learn an 'encourage fall down' move from combination 4...For example after the roundhouse kick, go right to a sweep with the same leg and finish accordingly..

Another example of something I do not like..Depending on the way it is taught..(I am going by the way I learned it)
Combination 2 or 5..the block and turning you entire body into a side horse stance and thereby blinding half you body away from the left the WILL be coming....TOO much of the right hand straight front punch stuff...Don't turn your body, incororate the hand checks that are so prevelant in EPAK and NOW you are good to go with a much more realistic scenario..

These are just my random thoughts and interpretations...They are welcome to be picked apart or questioned...this is how I learn..


It is VERY good that you are question things..it makes for a very good and knowledgeable student..

Best of Luck
Todd Guay
Ct Kempo and Fitness
South Meriden, CT

 

[ziason]

Well, do the techniques work for you in the Dragon Circle? Only you can answer your question with some reality-based testing.

I think we have all asked ourselves the same question.

Well, the basic techniques like #6 and #7 combination work well enough, and the basic 8 point blocks are fine, but I find the more complicated and lengthy combos don't really work that well in dragon circle. As I say in my other post, the timing and distance elements both wind up being too short. I have also experienced this during testing when I paired against brown belts. They work at close range and offer basically no time to respond to an attack. I felt that was a VERY realistinc situation, but it left me wondering if I don't have the time or distance to make the technique work, then what good is it. I'm sure everyone has asked themselves the same questions, that was the reason for my post, I'm wondering what answers you came up with. Is there some way I can make the techniques work better by changeing something I am doing, or should I just throw out the ones that don't work in a pressure stuation. And if I have to throw out material, why learn it at all?

 

[Drac]

Yes and No...

A punch is a punch and a kick is a kick...develop them well

Bravo...Well said...The basics are the foundation of any discipline...Learn them well..No need to get fancy to defend yourself...

 

[CTKempo Todd]

Bravo...Well said...The basics are the foundation of any discipline...Learn them well..No need to get fancy to defend yourself...

Thank you...

I try to develop MONSTER low simple basic stuff...hard and fast sid kick to the ribs...low roundhouse to the thighs.elbows to the heads...etc...
I don't kid myself..this is what I would do in a situation..no thing more or nothing less...

Combination 26 will stay in the closet when the time comes for a fight..

 

[Drac]

Thank you...

I try to develop MONSTER low simple basic stuff...hard and fast sid kick to the ribs...low roundhouse to the thighs.elbows to the heads...etc...
I don't kid myself..this is what I would do in a situation..no thing more or nothing less...

Combination 26 will stay in the closet when the time comes for a fight..

You're welcome...That's how I train the rookies in the academy BASIC kicks, punches...Lots of knee strikes and front snaps to the shin..If they show a gift than I'll show them some other techniques but that is only AFTER the master the basics...

 

[ChineseKempoJerry]

I do not practice SKK and know little about it. I just want to plug that sometimes the techniques are there for you to learn motion, not for the technique to continue as a whole. Once you have sustained some type of muscle memory you can choose portions of a technique or the ones you have ingrained the best during the stress of a fight (fighting is not pretty).

I always remind my students, it is more the student than the system. Fighting is fighting and has universal truths. There are only so many ways to kick and to punch. A system is a way to train or prepare for a fight. Take your system and try to learn these universal truths. You will see what you are learning can help you, but you have to decide.

I wish you well on your experience.

Sifu Jerry

 

[cameypsaromatis]

Well said. I completely agree. Sometimes I think that when you have a very structured system of techniques, though there are many benefits, there are some adversities that come out of that. I find that sometimes people, including myself, can't think out of the box. They are limited to this perfect attack situation or technique execution. I think you're right on the money with the notion that the techniques are there to teach you motion and well pretty much everything you said.

I do not practice SKK and know little about it. I just want to plug that sometimes the techniques are there for you to learn motion, not for the technique to continue as a whole. Once you have sustained some type of muscle memory you can choose portions of a technique or the ones you have ingrained the best during the stress of a fight (fighting is not pretty).

I always remind my students, it is more the student than the system. Fighting is fighting and has universal truths. There are only so many ways to kick and to punch. A system is a way to train or prepare for a fight. Take your system and try to learn these universal truths. You will see what you are learning can help you, but you have to decide.

I wish you well on your experience.

Sifu Jerry

 

[carmstrong]

How does the Parker system compare? I find even in trying to use some of the techniques in sparring practice that I can only get part of it executed.

There's a very important difference between sparring and doing a technique in a real self-defense situation. I'll use Ed Parker's Kenpo as an example since that's what I know best. The Parker techniques are designed to cause specific pain/damage at each stage of the technique and the attacker's reaction to that pain/damage sets up the next part of the technique and can cause some of the attacker's other possible weapons to be "checked" directly or the attacker is moved into a position that makes him unable to reach you with certain limbs.

In a sparring situation, you are not allowed to cause the damage/pain that the technique is counting on happening so that it can continue. So, obviously, if you try to do one of these fairly violent techniques while sparring, you can only use a little piece of it or use a few ideas from the technique, but you can't do the whole thing because the technique was designed to do damage that allows the next part of the technique to be possible.

I hope this helps you see it in a new way.

Chris

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

If a technique is applied properly based on the type of attack it will work, reguardless WHAT system/discpline it is taken from...My 2 cents...

I have to differ with you here. When I was taking TKD there were some defenses against punches shown that involved knocking a punch out of the air with a crescent...

Strike 1 - No one throws a punch from that far away.

Strike 2 - Their fist is closer to your face than your foot is to their fist

Strike 3 - The arm moves way faster than the leg

and after three strikes you're out or should I say KTFO

There are some "self defense" techniques that are just downright flawed on multiple counts. For the above example the physics of distance time and speed are against the first movement in everyway.

 

[Drac]

I stand corrected....

 

[MJS]

How does the Parker system compare?

I prefer the Parker system. For me, I feel that the various zones, ie: height, width, depth, were addressed better, as well as the checking and controlling principles. It also seemed to go into more depth on the what if, even if phase. A search online should yield some good results. Here is a link to some American Kenpo techniques:

http://www.ltatum.com/TipOfTheWeek.html

I find even in trying to use some of the techniques in sparring practice that I can only get part of it executed. They always emphasize timing and distance, and it seems in a real situation you don't have as much as you need of either to execute all the techniques. I have previous experience in the military in policing and security situations. I find some of the basic techniques familiar and practical, but then I learn something more advanced and I just have to stop and look and say, no way I'll ever be to accompl;ish all that in a real fight. It just seems more practical to learn all the basic elements and be able to apply them as the situation dictates rather than some long combination. Maybe I just don't see the whole picture yet, but I'm getting up there in years, and I want to be sure I'm not wasting my time mastering something that will fail me when I really need it. The thing with the videos that bothers me is that it's just to staged. I mean I have seen other people demonstrate things from other styles and it look like they are actually performing the technique, but in our classes and in the video it's more like ok, I'll kick you now and you fall here, etc. It just seems to me an effective technique should work wothout the opponents participation, in fact in spite of their resistance.

Pulling off a tech. during sparring is possible, but its not going to happen overnight. Every teacher is going to teach differently, so it is possible that you're not getting what someone else is. I have always felt that getting some resistance during the techs. is very important. WE should be moving the person, not telling them where to fall, etc.

Please don't take anything I've said as a slam against Villari, SKK, or your school. I credit my first school for setting me on my Martial Arts path. If you're not happy with things, perhaps talking with your inst. about it, or looking at some other schools around your area, would be good.

Mike

 

[ziason]

I prefer the Parker system. For me, I feel that the various zones, ie: height, width, depth, were addressed better, as well as the checking and controlling principles. It also seemed to go into more depth on the what if, even if phase. A search online should yield some good results. Here is a link to some American Kenpo techniques:

http://www.ltatum.com/TipOfTheWeek.html



Pulling off a tech. during sparring is possible, but its not going to happen overnight. Every teacher is going to teach differently, so it is possible that you're not getting what someone else is. I have always felt that getting some resistance during the techs. is very important. WE should be moving the person, not telling them where to fall, etc.

Please don't take anything I've said as a slam against Villari, SKK, or your school. I credit my first school for setting me on my Martial Arts path. If you're not happy with things, perhaps talking with your inst. about it, or looking at some other schools around your area, would be good.

Mike

I don't take anything you said as a slam, and I'm not trying to slam them either. I think my instructor is good, and the school is good too. I just want to be sure I get the most I can from what I'm learning. My goal is to really learn the material in a way I can actually use it, not just memorize it to the point I can display it, if you take my meaning.