Does Steven Seagal still teach Aikido?

Discussion in 'Aikido' started by moonhill99, Apr 12, 2015.

  1. Hyoho

    Hyoho Black Belt

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    @Moonhill, we all try to be good Buddhists. After a Buddhist sermon in Japan on being a good follower, not killing anything or eating things that have been killed we usually meet up at the barbecue shop.
     
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  2. Spinedoc

    Spinedoc Brown Belt

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    Look, you need to go study. Take your time, find a good teacher, and learn. Right now, you are grasping at complex topics which are interrelated in subtle ways, and you are coming to sweeping conclusions that are for the most part inaccurate. Good luck with your studies.
     
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  3. moonhill99

    moonhill99 Purple Belt

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    Well it is true if I type in youtube atemi and Aikido it showing striking.

    But why when I look at promote videos, demonstration and attacker coming after the person they no striking just throws,take downs,wrist locks and holds?


    Is it you spend x number of time learning atemi striking , x number of type learning throws,take downs,wrist locks.

    And these are videos people are uploading?

    If so why is it separated? Other arts in promote videos, demonstration put in striking.
     
  4. moonhill99

    moonhill99 Purple Belt

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    Not if I go to school thinking it going to look like this.





    The thing is this is what I have in my head how the striking should play out.

    Like I said to other poster if I type in youtube atemi and Aikido it is showing striking.

    But the promote videos,demonstration and training seem to be more on throws,take downs,wrist locks and holds. For some reason.

    Not like how two Aikijujutsu videos above show.
     
  5. Argus

    Argus Black Belt

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    Thanks for the reply!

    I wonder if it is highly dependent on the system in question? As for German Longsword, we are generally taught to cut into a target rather than "at" or "past" it, if that makes sense. Numerous Japanese sword arts seem to share this method of cutting, but perhaps I'm mistaken.

    While I've never trained in any koryuu arts, most of the demonstrations I've seen of them present very direct systems, with examples of "following after" and centerline theory similar to what one will find in Longsword. While I agree that youtube videos aren't the best way to make one's point -- particularly in an art that one hasn't trained, I'll put a few here for reference as I'd like a more educated opinion as to what's going on:

    onoha ittou ryuu:

    Cuts appear to be directed into the opponent, and keep the centerline closed. There are also some examples of "following in" when an opponent opens the line by retracting his sword, or cutting in a committed motion towards the floor. The one exception is where tori demonstrates what we would term a "wechselhau" -- cutting down and scooping back up.

    hokushin ittou ryuu

    There are lots of examples of direct cuts and thrusts, and taking advantage of an opponent who cuts to the ground.

    teshin shoden katori shintou ryuu

    [See 10:18 onward; they demonstrate a method of cutting (maki-uchi), and then go on to break down a few of the forms. I might also note that the commentator (Ootake Risuke Shihan, I think?) even mentions in passing "the katana cuts well enough; you needn't strike forcefully"]
    Even katori shintou ryuu, whose kata appear more "flowery" on the surface is very tight and direct in application.

    So, it seems to me that many swordsmen do in fact practice attacks that terminate in a forward position. But, I admit that I'm only looking at these arts from an outside perspective, and I realize that there is a large diversity of ryuuha among Japanese sword arts.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2015
  6. elder999

    elder999 El Oso de Dios!

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    Atemi is striking (当て身) .....Ueshiba said, as I posted upthread, that :
    and, elsewhere, :
    but this is also the man who said that his physical training ended in 1941, and that he'd been studying "the way of the gods" ever since.



    For the same reasons that people insist there is no striking in judo: because of the way it is taught by many people.

    Aikido became popularized (as in, "spread across the world") during the time when Ueshiba was an old man who was emphasizing (correctly) positive values, peace, and harmony. The lack of emphasis on atemi grew out of this-there are those threads of aikido, like Iwama, that demonstrate more emphasis on atemi-but it's still aikikai aikido. In fact, I believe that Seagal Sensei trained pretty extensively with an Iwama sensei (Kobayashi?), and this might account for some of what he does.Another thing that accounts for it is his size-he's 6'5", and uses his body to his advantage, which is as it should be.

    As to the original post, I know he was still doing seminars as recently as 2011-I attended one in the Tenshin dojo in Taos, NM, back in 2004. I don't know that he's had any since 2011, though, or even if there is still a Tenshin aikido dojo in Taos......

    In any case, we all can aspire to aikido's ideals of positivity: peace, harmony, good relationships.....and practice atemi when necessary. Ideally, sure, I'd love to be able to defend myself without hurting an assailant. Realistically, that's just not likely: I'll just never be that good....

    EDIT: Dunn Sensei still has a dojo in Taos, but he apparently doesn't call it "Tenshin" anymore...
     
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  7. Hyoho

    Hyoho Black Belt

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    Most of the videos show schools that are using protective equipment. Also strikes/cuts made are principally to the wrist. Schools not using armour tend like Aikido to use avoidance linked with attack. We can stop the blade depending one where a cut is made such as jodan, chudan, gedan. As elder999 says Seagal is big. his teacher would teach him what works for a big man. Our physical makeup does dictate variation as long as good fundamentals are present. Character is added to fundamentals, not mashed in to fill in the gaps. You cant 'pop' in another art either to replace things you don't know. I love the remark, "This is also the man who said that his physical training ended in 1941, and that he'd been studying "the way of the gods" ever since". This 'is' Ki. Hence Aikido.

    Too many videos! You wont learn much from videos. I wont even allow people to take them unless its for personal use and have shunned TV programs looking for sensationalism for years.
     
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  8. Gwaredydd

    Gwaredydd White Belt

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    After watching Segal closely, relatively recently; I don't think he teaches Aikido in any form any more. It can be quite common to cross train in different arts, I don't advocate the purist totally, but Segal seems to have given up his principals of Japanese aikido to a somewhat Chinese based short arm kung fu or wu shu style. The wrist locks he uses are hard, he almost never steps off line now and he limits his use of space and body movement. So, no, he does not teach Aikido in my view as he once did.
     
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  9. Hyoho

    Hyoho Black Belt

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    Sad to hear, Well at least he is not calling it his own and has decided to rename it. Maybe that's to follow?
     
  10. K-man

    K-man Grandmaster

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    I'm assuming this is the sort of training you would like. OK, that's fine. These guys are good but it would have taken many years to get to that degree of proficiency. Most classes will be teaching basics until you get to at least black belt level and most students will never get to that level of expertise.

    The Aikijutsu videos show the strikes. The training itself doesn't use strikes. That is exactly the same as good Aikido.

    This is a video I have posted before.



    Is that the type of Aikido you are looking for?
     
  11. elder999

    elder999 El Oso de Dios!

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    By "watching Seagal closely, relatively recently" do you mean "after watching his latest movies," or "after watching him teach?"
     
  12. moonhill99

    moonhill99 Purple Belt

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    Yea my idea of bit more rough and striking is like this.











    This is what I have in my head how the striking should play out.

    To me Aikijujutsu, Jujutsu Krav Maga, Japanese jiu jitsu and hapkido art is some thing more I would want to train in.


    Like Tony said in other thread.

    Yes . This is what doing.

    If time was not problem I would take Japanese jiu jitsu and aikido.

    If I had my way I would take combat Japanese jiujitsu mix in with Judo and Krav Maga.




    Okay so if I understand if one goes to Aikijutsu or Aikido they will learn striking, but it will not be part of training learning to do throws, take-downs, wrist locks, holds and dealing with attacker? It will be separate training?

    They will do x number time learning striking skills than x number of time learning to do throws, take-downs, wrist locks, holds and dealing with attacker?

    sorry but I'm confused here on this.



    sorta of, but it looks like more gritty aikido than the nice aikido .

    I would say Aikijutsu videos I posted above or Jujutsu Krav Maga video I posted above, Japanese jiujitsu or Hapkido above looks more like style I would want to train in.
     
  13. moonhill99

    moonhill99 Purple Belt

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    So where would one find a school teaching the old Aikido with more striking?

    Are the old schools getting hard to find now?

    In Japan do they still teach the old ways?
     
  14. K-man

    K-man Grandmaster

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    OK, but remember, Aikijustsu and Aikido are much the same depending on the teacher, Jujutsu Krav Maga doesn't exist to the best of my knowledge and Hapkido is the Korean style of Aikido. Japanese Jujutsu has many styles so you will need to check carefully to ensure what you want is available.

    If you had a good Jujutsu school you wouldn't need the Aikido.

    Jujutsu with Krav would be good but I wouldn't bother with the Judo. Judo is a refined Jujutsu.

    Why would you think that? Striking is a big part of making the other techniques effective.

    No! It is all the same training.

    It is very nice Aikido and we normally train it as 'nice' Aikido. The reason I posted it was to show you that 'nice' Aikido is very effective when you apply the power. These are some of the guys I train with.

    Cool! Now that you know what you want, you have to stand up, move away from the keyboard and go explore your neighbourhood. ;)
    Good luck!
     
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  15. moonhill99

    moonhill99 Purple Belt

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    What do you mean Aikijustsu and Aikido is the same? Did Aikido some how changed from it.


    A lot of the Jujutsu schools out side of Japan have more in common with Judo than Aikido. I think it is those modern western schools some members talk about here, than the old classic Jujutsu schools in Japan.


    Some people say Judo is better than Jujutsu and Aikido because Jujutsu and Aikido is stand up art and have no ground work.

    That if you take Jujutsu or Aikido you better not end up on the ground.


    What I mean is self defense scenario tough in class on how to respond to attacker.

    Step one - Strike
    Step two -Throw/ take down
    Step three- finished move hold or strike

    Back away.


    If attacker gets up than repeat the above.


    I know in real self defense scenario on the streets it be more ugly with skilled fighter and unpredictable moves.


    That why some of the other styles are more appealing to me as a main art and Aikido more as supplement to combat jiujitsu,Judo or Jujutsu Krav Mag


    No, what I mean by nice is flowing and smoothing movement like this.







     
  16. Hyoho

    Hyoho Black Belt

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    I don't think you need the videos to make your point, How can there be a stopping movement when you are using the flow of an attack midstream against that person? If the energy has gone or is blocked it interrupts the objective.
     
  17. moonhill99

    moonhill99 Purple Belt

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    Okay I think I know what you are thinking here and trying to get at.

    If you block or strike ( like I wanted) and incoming attacker coming at you at a some one speed it would interrupts the flowing and smoothing movement and would not be using the attackers own energy against him. If so that would explain some of lack of striking.

    That these throws and take downs work better by using the energy against him.And by using a block or strike would interrupt both flowing and smoothing movement and aikido theory of using energy against him.

    If so that would explain the lack of striking seeing by the incoming attacker coming at you a some one speed.

    If so than yes you really don't want to strike on the incoming attacker as that would interrupt both flowing and smoothing movement and aikido theory of using energy against him!! And making the throw and take down harder.

    That some of these throws and take downs work better when the attacker momentum is still in movement against him. And block or strike wold interrupt it causing the attacker to come to stand still.
     
  18. K-man

    K-man Grandmaster

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    Aikido was derived from Daito Ryu, a style of Jujutsu. Initially it was referred to as Aikijutsu

    I'm totally surprised. If that is indeed the case then find one that actually teaches jujutsu. :)

    Then 'some people' would be wrong. For goodness sake, stop posting what other people have told you and find out for yourself.

    That is stupid! What you have described is fighting, not self defence and it is so simplistic to be unbelievable. On top of everything, why would you back away while the threat still exists? To go through all that again, when you were in a controlling position, makes absolutely zero sense.

    Hmm! But with real self defence you wouldn't be in that situation to begin with. By the time you are squaring up to a skilled fighter on the street your self defence skills have been shown to be exceptionally poor.

    Oh boy! Jujutsu is Jujutsu. 'Combat Jiujitsu' is a marketing tag. Same with 'Jujutsu Krav Maga'. Krav Maga is Krav Maga.

    You do realise that these videos are all of skilled Aikidoka taking Ukemi. The same techniques applied to untrained people will look very 'gritty' and not in the least bit 'nice'.
     
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  19. Hyoho

    Hyoho Black Belt

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    Some of this is not unlike sword work done without protection. We start with beginners standing at a distance. Even if its not one on one they can respond to the timing of an attacker. One on one its gradually speeded up over the a long period of time. Finally we can hopefully attack at near on full speed. There has to be an element of danger to get the right response that should be to deal with an attack rather than avoid. No point responding to something that wont hit you anyway.
     
  20. moonhill99

    moonhill99 Purple Belt

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    So how did Aikido get changed and why did it branched off from Aikijutsu?

    No, I have sorta of choreographed move stuck in my head base on some videos I watched that I want to train on.

    I know self defence on the streets it will be more ugly and not play out so nice with skilled and unpredictable fighter.

    The self defense scenario tough in class on how to respond to attacker.

    The attacker runs,charges, moves goes after.

    Step one - Strike
    Step two -Throw/ take down
    Step three- finished move hold or strike



    K-man like said I watched thee videos and this what I'm trying to get at.

    This sorta of what is stuck in my head how I would like to train.








    I watched these videos and this is how I would like to incorporate the striking and train like.

    Well yes I know in real defense scenario it would be ugly and not play out so nice with skilled unpredictable fighter.



    Oh other thing I think I'm misunderstanding about aikido:eek: I think what Hyoha getting at is number of things I read but not understanding it.

    That these throws and take downs work better when.

    1 using the attackers own energy against him
    2 unbalance the attacker
    3 move the attacker in the directions he moving or wants to go
    4 use the flowing and smoothing movement
    5 use the attacker momentum is still in movement against him


    Than I can see if you used block or strike ( like I wanted ) and incoming attacker coming at you the interrupt it causing the attacker to come to stand still. Making the throw or take down harder.

    There may be times when attacker is not moving when you may have to strike or moving really slow.

    If so than I think I'm missing up how aikido moves work with some other arts that are different. With some of them that use more force to deal with force.

    If so that would explain why there is lack of striking in coming attacker and why you would not want to strike.

    Any think with word combat will have more striking and be more rough than a self defense were goal is to get way from the fight. So in self defense if you can get him on ground and run away you won.

    Where the combat would put in more sticking to the attacker gets injured or say I had enough.

    In self defense Judo or Aikido would play out better in court than Krav Mag or combat Jiujitsu. Will they will say you become too aggressive. A take down to ground may be better than punched to throat,eye gouging,neck twitching and chokeholds.

    And striking more than two times may be seen in court you are too aggressive.

    Only time Krav Mag may be good is if you getting beaten not attacked and the guy is really big you may have no choice but to fight rough and dirty.:rage: Otherwise you may want to go bit more softer.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2015

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