Does one's skill flow from the kata?

[cstanley]

This is very apt, HS—very apt, especially in the historical setting where the kata were invented. In the original Okinawan setting where Matsumura, Itosu, Azato and other karate pioneers got their skills, the only way any techniques were transmitted was by the kata themselves. The kihon line drills through which virtually everyone in the West who learned MAs in the current era was taught—the bread and butter of dojo/dojang/studio teaching methods everywhere—were unknown. From all available accounts, including his own autobiography, Funakoshi's training for the first decade with Itosu consisted solely of practicing the Naihanchi kata set and working out their bunkai (even though Motobu didn't think much of Funakoshi's analysis and suspected that Itosu had withheld the most effective applications from him; but then again, Motobu seems to have loathed GF personally); where else would he have learned his techs from except Naihanchi?—that's all he had to work with! And as Abernethy notes, Motobu wrote in Okinawa Kenpo Karate-jutsu that `the Naihanchi, Passai, Chinto and Rohai styles are not left in China today and only remain in Okinawa as active martial arts'. The bolded material makes it pretty clear that these kata were not regarded as `parts' of a martial art, add-ons so to speak, but were thought of as complete stand-alone fighting systems on their own. In a way, `karate' corresonds to a general description (in much the same way that the generic term kung fu covers an enormous variety of specific CMAs regarded by their practitioners as quite different from each other.) And as Burgar points out in his book, `the fact is that before circa 1880 it was the norm for karateka to know a small number of kata. We also know that each master of karate was capable of defending himself. Therefore his one, two or three kata contained all of the knowledge that he would have needed to achieve that goal. This means that each kata (or small group of kata) was a `style' in its own right.' (p. 29). Motobu also mentions in the same 1926 book that `a master usually only had one kata in his style'. All this changed radically when karate was brought to Japan, taught to mass classes as part of a kind of calisthenics and discipline exercise to university students destined for military service, and broken up into individual, isolated techniques unconnected to the application sequences that they were originally constructed to communicate to the learner. That approach was the prototype for the current instructional model. But it's probably possible to reapproach, to some extent anyway, the earlier Okinawan teaching format.

So it seems to be the case that the kata we learn today, which are essentially just variants of the original Okinawan kata, contain the whole content of the fighting system. As Burgar argues at length in his book, they can be used as the entire core curriculum of a martial art—arts which were indended by their creators to be, first and foremost, effective fighting systems. So a full syllabus—including the use of throws, trapping and locking techs, nicely illustrated for example in Javier Martinez's book Okinawan Karate, which provides a number of photos of Funakoshi, Motobu, Chitose, Konishi and other great practitioners performing these techs both on their own and also in tandem with strikes—is already present in the kata.

One of the problems I see in current TKD is the backfeed from Olympic practice into training; a lot of time is spent drilling high, complex kicks, often with spins, that literally do not exist in any of the hyungs. People with heavy street-fighting/security work experience, such as Peyton Quinn, Loren Christensen, Geoff Thompson and Lawrence Kane, are unanimous in rejecting high complex kicks as practical street defense; as Gm. Pelligrini commented at one point in the seminar he gave this past weekend, when you're fighting at close quarters, which is where fights actually start, you simply cannot execute these kinds of kicks—you have no room! High kicks themselves are great for balance training; I do them (well, as high as as I can manage!) several hours a week. But the kicks that the hyungs themselves depict are typically middle or low kicks, and in realistic bunkai, of the kind that Stuart Anslow and especially Simon O'Neil offer, are unbalancing techniques, inflicting lower body limb damage, setting up the finishing strikes which are almost always hand/forearm/elbow techs. Competitors in poomsae competitions have been steadily increasing their height under the impression that higher is better, which doesn't always sit well with knowledgeable judges, according to my instructor. To the extent that training is going to be practical for street defense, it will look much more like kata/hyung-based techniques than sport-based, and one way to implement this would be to follow Abernethy's and Burgar's ideas about curriculum and make kata/hyung much more the basis of technical instruction than they currently seem to be.



Absolutely. One problem with practicing forms with this intent is worrying too much about how `pretty' the form looks when you do it. That I think interferes with training for effective application. It's like skiers who worry about keeping their skis locked together as though they were a snowboard, to create a `pretty' visual effect, when in fact stepping moves to correct your line and position yourself high in the gate are one of the three or four most important components of modern racing technique. Burgar and Abernethy both advise practicing kata as though you were applying the techs of each subsequence against an actual attacker engaged in as lifelike an assault as you can visualize, continuously until they become more like conditioned reflexes than the dancelike movements they start out as.

Kata does not have to look "pretty," but it should have a certain gracefulness and elegance, or dignity, about it. Proper stance, smooth movement, and crisp focus, etc. Kuniba said that kata should be "text book." The applications do not always look "like" the kata. In kata, you strive for perfection...stances, punches and kicks, transitions, breathing, focus...all should be as "text book" as possible. Form follows function. There is a reason for why we pay so much attention to fine points. It has a lot to do with the mushin and zanshin you don't like to hear about.
There are actually very few bunkai that are done exactly as the sequence in the kata. Hand positions change, there are certain "understood" moves that are not shown in the kata, and some moves, in application, are surprisingly unlike what appears obvious in the kata. This is why it is important to practice yakusoku or hokei kumite with partners. It opens doors to what is actually going on in the kata.
Kata is done with slow/fast sequences, hard/soft sequences, and breathing changes that give the kata life and rhythm. It is important to visualize an opponent, but what you do in the kata will not always be the same as what you do in application. Think of it as a koan.

 

[exile]

Form follows function. There is a reason for why we pay so much attention to fine points. It has a lot to do with the mushin and zanshin you don't like to hear about.
There are actually very few bunkai that are done exactly as the sequence in the kata. Hand positions change, there are certain "understood" moves that are not shown in the kata, and some moves, in application, are surprisingly unlike what appears obvious in the kata.

I agree completely, CS, and in fact Iain Abernethy—whom you don't like to hear about—is also in complete agreement with you on this. He gives many examples in his book, Bunkai-Jutsu, that reinforce exactly the point you're making here. Are you sure you and he are as far apart as you think?

This is why it is important to practice yakusoku or hokei kumite with partners. It opens doors to what is actually going on in the kata.

Again—both IA and Kane & Wilder, in their book on kata interpretation, emphasize these two points: practice the kata to achieve as close to perfect form as you can, but also train the kata with a partner—the less compliant and cooperative the better!—to see how the apps differ from the ideal form that the kata present. Again, there isn't as much difference between your view and theirs as you may have thought...

Kata is done with slow/fast sequences, hard/soft sequences, and breathing changes that give the kata life and rhythm. It is important to visualize an opponent, but what you do in the kata will not always be the same as what you do in application. Think of it as a koan.

I think on all these points we can agree to agree!

 

[cstanley]

I agree completely, CS, and in fact Iain Abernethy—whom you don't like to hear about—is also in complete agreement with you on this. He gives many examples in his book, Bunkai-Jutsu, that reinforce exactly the point you're making here. Are you sure you and he are as far apart as you think?



Again—both IA and Kane & Wilder, in their book on kata interpretation, emphasize these two points: practice the kata to achieve as close to perfect form as you can, but also train the kata with a partner—the less compliant and cooperative the better!—to see how the apps differ from the ideal form that the kata present. Again, there isn't as much difference between your view and theirs as you may have thought...



I think on all these points we can agree to agree!

Good...now listen closely... all this is about mushin and zanshin. Trust me on this. It also has to do with shibumi, which is often translated as "restrained elegance" but which Higoshi Sensei called "effortless perfection." You can only achieve shibumi in kata when it comes from mushin. The "mind of no mind" allows for more complete zanshin. If your mind is empty (or calm), it reflects all that is around it. This makes for more complete awareness (zanshin) and allows you to respond quickly and without thought or hesitation. When I began training in iaido with a live blade, it confirmed much of what I had been taught about kata.

So, when I say that kata is about mushin and zanshin, I am not just being esoteric. You can win any fight with good timing and a gyakuzuki; the rest is spirit. Timing is a part of the concept of mushin. To strike without thought...to allow the opponent's movements or intentions to "draw" the technique. Kata is designed to develop those things. Kata is, indeed, all you said about technique and application. I am just saying that it goes way beyond that...if you want it to.

That is why my instructors used to say that applications are important, then they become secondary for a long time, then they become important again way down the road. I don't fight or do kata now anything like I did at shodan or nidan. I don't even see the same things in the kata. It is amazing how many things drop away over time and with continued training. So, perhaps we are looking at two sides of the same coin, or at the path from different places on the mountain.

 

[exile]

Good...now listen closely... all this is about mushin and zanshin. Trust me on this. It also has to do with shibumi, which is often translated as "restrained elegance" but which Higoshi Sensei called "effortless perfection." You can only achieve shibumi in kata when it comes from mushin. The "mind of no mind" allows for more complete zanshin. If your mind is empty (or calm), it reflects all that is around it. This makes for more complete awareness (zanshin) and allows you to respond quickly and without thought or hesitation. When I began training in iaido with a live blade, it confirmed much of what I had been taught about kata.

So, when I say that kata is about mushin and zanshin, I am not just being esoteric. You can win any fight with good timing and a gyakuzuki; the rest is spirit. Timing is a part of the concept of mushin. To strike without thought...to allow the opponent's movements or intentions to "draw" the technique. Kata is designed to develop those things. Kata is, indeed, all you said about technique and application. I am just saying that it goes way beyond that...if you want it to.

That is why my instructors used to say that applications are important, then they become secondary for a long time, then they become important again way down the road. I don't fight or do kata now anything like I did at shodan or nidan. I don't even see the same things in the kata. It is amazing how many things drop away over time and with continued training. So, perhaps we are looking at two sides of the same coin, or at the path from different places on the mountain.

I'm very sympathetic to what you're saying here, and I'll tell you this, CS, no one would be happier than me for you to be right. Friends?

 

[Sukerkin]

So, perhaps we are looking at two sides of the same coin, or at the path from different places on the mountain.

A most valid insight and, I think, quite often the conclusion reached whenever we have emotive discourse on aspects of martial arts i.e. we can have fairly firey exchanges and then realise we're actually talking about the same thing with a different emphasis.

As I said earlier, this is really frighteningly easy to achive when 'conversing' on the Net, as what you type to the screen may read one way for you and a different way for everyone else. When this unintentional 'content' of your words is reflected back ... the fun (need a smiley for 'inverse meaning' here) begins .

 

[cstanley]

I'm very sympathetic to what you're saying here, and I'll tell you this, CS, no one would be happier than me for you to be right. Friends?

Certainly. I don't think it is "right or wrong" here. We are just looking at different layers of things. I come from a strictly traditional Shito ryu background with very traditional teachers. I've never really had any interest in branching out from that, so I tend to see things through those particular "rose colored glasses." There are a lot of ways to learn to fight; karate is certainly not the quickest way, but it does offer other things on deeper levels. I guess if I just wanted to learn to fight and nothing else, I would choose some kind of boxing/grappling training combined. Maybe boxing and judo (the old judo).

 

[exile]

we can have fairly firey exchanges and then realise we're actually talking about the same thing with a different emphasis... this is really frighteningly easy to achive when 'conversing' on the Net.

Well said, Mark. I think most of us have been caught in this trap at one time or another. Most of it wouldn't happen in a real conversation in a cozy pub over a pint or two. The internet giveth, but it also taketh away...

Certainly. I don't think it is "right or wrong" here. We are just looking at different layers of things. I come from a strictly traditional Shito ryu background with very traditional teachers. I've never really had any interest in branching out from that, so I tend to see things through those particular "rose colored glasses." There are a lot of ways to learn to fight; karate is certainly not the quickest way, but it does offer other things on deeper levels. I guess if I just wanted to learn to fight and nothing else, I would choose some kind of boxing/grappling training combined. Maybe boxing and judo (the old judo).

I think the multilayered nature of kata is part of where much of the argument and strife over their `true nature' comes from. And I should remember that, because I've been involved in other arguments that turned out to be based on that same multiple, complex nature of the beast. It's one of the reasons I think why we keep coming back to the kata and debating them and putting them under the microscope: there is something inherently mysterious and fascinating about something that has, as you say, so many layers to it...

 

[kingkong89]

absolutly katas are important, without them we would not be able to perfect our tech, therefor we would not have good solid ones. that is the whole ideal of kata is to advance these skills for kumite.

 

[chinto]

If kata is like a book that needs to be opened as some will agree on then practical application would be the movie made from that book. I relate a paragraph in the book "The Essence of Shaolin White Crane, The Foundation of White Crane Kung Fu and The Root of Okinawan Karate".
Page 6 (For example, it is well known in China that in order to compete and survive in a battle against other martial styles, each martial style must contain four basic categories of fighting techniques. They are: hand striking, kicking, wrestling, and qin na (seizing and controlling techniques). When these techniques were exported to Japan, they splintered over time to become many styles. For example, punching and kicking became Karate, wrestling became Judo, and qin na became Jujitsu. Actually, the essence and secret of Chinese martial arts developed in Buddhist and Daoist monasteries was not completely revealed to Chinese lay society until the Qing Dynasty (1644-1912A.D.) These secrets have been revealed to western countries only in the last three decades.)
Kata is not the end all I will agree, it is just a book, And books make for arm chair karate-Ka. I submit as many of you have, we need to go to the "movie stage". All above is submited with total respect for everyone.

I must disagree here. striking is indeed a part of karate. but at least the older styles of Okinawan Karate cover the techniques you mentioned of striking ( including kicks and elbows etc.) it also contains grapling and sezing and controling, joint locks and throws and of course brakes and the knowledge of basic anatimy and what they knew of physioligy as well. I do not beleave that any of the older styles that survived over 300 years or so were or are incompleat when tought properly, after all they were and are used as a means of survival and not for sport. the kata of a system when analized carefully for the bunkai will show you these things, but only if you look under the surfice.

 

[Danjo]

I must disagree here. striking is indeed a part of karate. but at least the older styles of Okinawan Karate cover the techniques you mentioned of striking ( including kicks and elbows etc.) it also contains grapling and sezing and controling, joint locks and throws and of course brakes and the knowledge of basic anatimy and what they knew of physioligy as well. I do not beleave that any of the older styles that survived over 300 years or so were or are incompleat when tought properly, after all they were and are used as a means of survival and not for sport. the kata of a system when analized carefully for the bunkai will show you these things, but only if you look under the surfice.

I agree with you. One only has to look at Motobu's books to see that he incorporated far more than mere kicking and punching. Seasoned's quote is also wrong in what Judo is or how it came to be. It was derived directly from Jiu Jitsu, not Chinese wrestling. Jiu Jitsu (and it's descendant Judo) both had Atemi Waza as well as the grappling and throwing techniques where punches and kicks were used. The paragraph is just bad history. Also, only some Okinawan Karate came from White Crane. Oh well.

 

[seasoned]

I must disagree here. striking is indeed a part of karate. but at least the older styles of Okinawan Karate cover the techniques you mentioned of striking ( including kicks and elbows etc.) it also contains grapling and sezing and controling, joint locks and throws and of course brakes and the knowledge of basic anatimy and what they knew of physioligy as well. I do not beleave that any of the older styles that survived over 300 years or so were or are incompleat when tought properly, after all they were and are used as a means of survival and not for sport. the kata of a system when analized carefully for the bunkai will show you these things, but only if you look under the surfice.

I am not sure what you are disagreeing on here. The book I refer to is "The Essence of Shaolin White Crane, The Foundation of White Crane Kung Fu and The Root of Okinawan Karate". From China to Okinawa the system stayed complete while blending with Okinawa Te. When introduced into the Japanese school system for younger children it is documented to have been tapered down so it was excepted as a curriculum for the younger students. I think I am referring to Okinawa goju as being a complete system with what you mention above found in these old traditional kata. If I have missed the point or a point in this discussion then I apologize.

 

[cstanley]

The roots and influences of Chinese martial arts in relation to Okinawan karate are often vague. We know there was much Chinese influence and that many Okinawans went to China and trained. The White Crane influence is spoken of with regard to certain kata, but it is difficult to trace all the history. The Okinawans did not write a lot of stuff down, and oral tradition is often unreliable. There are a lot of Westerners writing books now, trying to be historians. They are best taken with a grain of salt. Nagamine, in his book on the Okinawan masters, is fairly cautious in his statements. As much as we would like a detailed history, complete with footnotes, there just isn't one. Two of my instructors have been Japanese/Okinawan and they were very hesitant to make categorical statements about history. I usually just accept the fact of Chinese influence and practice the kata.

 

[seasoned]

The roots and influences of Chinese martial arts in relation to Okinawan karate are often vague. We know there was much Chinese influence and that many Okinawans went to China and trained. The White Crane influence is spoken of with regard to certain kata, but it is difficult to trace all the history. The Okinawans did not write a lot of stuff down, and oral tradition is often unreliable. There are a lot of Westerners writing books now, trying to be historians. They are best taken with a grain of salt. Nagamine, in his book on the Okinawan masters, is fairly cautious in his statements. As much as we would like a detailed history, complete with footnotes, there just isn't one. Two of my instructors have been Japanese/Okinawan and they were very hesitant to make categorical statements about history. I usually just accept the fact of Chinese influence and practice the kata.

Where do you feel Sanchin Kata originated from, and do you feel that it is the cornerstone of Okinawa GoJu?

 

[cstanley]

Where do you feel Sanchin Kata originated from, and do you feel that it is the cornerstone of Okinawa GoJu?

As I understand it, Sanchin is, indeed, from the White Crane lineage. Yes, everyone I know in Goju will say that it is the cornerstone of Goju. Morio Higaonna once explained the importance of Sanchin at a seminar I attended in Orlando.

 

[tellner]

It [Sanchin] is definitely the keystone of Uechi Ryu.

 

[seasoned]

Quote:
Originally Posted by chinto
I must disagree here. striking is indeed a part of karate. but at least the older styles of Okinawan Karate cover the techniques you mentioned of striking ( including kicks and elbows etc.) it also contains grapling and sezing and controling, joint locks and throws and of course brakes and the knowledge of basic anatimy and what they knew of physioligy as well. I do not beleave that any of the older styles that survived over 300 years or so were or are incompleat when tought properly, after all they were and are used as a means of survival and not for sport. the kata of a system when analized carefully for the bunkai will show you these things, but only if you look under the surfice.

I will agree that older traditional systems like Okinawan GoJu remained complete and as you said you need only to look at the kata, but my reference was toward the styles that influenced and fostered the sport aspect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by seasoned
Where do you feel Sanchin Kata originated from, and do you feel that it is the cornerstone of Okinawa GoJu?

(cstanley mentioned)
As I understand it, Sanchin is, indeed, from the White Crane lineage. Yes, everyone I know in Goju will say that it is the cornerstone of Goju. Morio Higaonna once explained the importance of Sanchin at a seminar I attended in Orlando.

Mr cstanley if we could dialog a bit please. This will help to see if we are on the same page. Would you agree that Okinawan Te was an external art and that the greatest influence from Chinese martial arts was the internal aspects and thus the name change to GoJu (hard/soft). If you agree on the above then what GoJu kata was introduced to start this change.

 

[cstanley]

Quote:
Originally Posted by chinto
I must disagree here. striking is indeed a part of karate. but at least the older styles of Okinawan Karate cover the techniques you mentioned of striking ( including kicks and elbows etc.) it also contains grapling and sezing and controling, joint locks and throws and of course brakes and the knowledge of basic anatimy and what they knew of physioligy as well. I do not beleave that any of the older styles that survived over 300 years or so were or are incompleat when tought properly, after all they were and are used as a means of survival and not for sport. the kata of a system when analized carefully for the bunkai will show you these things, but only if you look under the surfice.

I will agree that older traditional systems like Okinawan GoJu remained complete and as you said you need only to look at the kata, but my reference was toward the styles that influenced and fostered the sport aspect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by seasoned
Where do you feel Sanchin Kata originated from, and do you feel that it is the cornerstone of Okinawa GoJu?

(cstanley mentioned)
As I understand it, Sanchin is, indeed, from the White Crane lineage. Yes, everyone I know in Goju will say that it is the cornerstone of Goju. Morio Higaonna once explained the importance of Sanchin at a seminar I attended in Orlando.

Mr cstanley if we could dialog a bit please. This will help to see if we are on the same page. Would you agree that Okinawan Te was an external art and that the greatest influence from Chinese martial arts was the internal aspects and thus the name change to GoJu (hard/soft). If you agree on the above then what GoJu kata was introduced to start this change.

Okinawa Te, or Te, was the generic name for Okinawan martial arts before they were called karate. It is difficult to answer the question about external/internal categorically. Chinese influence is there in all the Okinawan ryu. The short answer is that, yes, the Shuri styles tended to be more external, but that isn't very helpful. Miyagi introduced Tensho and Saifa early on after going to China with Gokenki. He did not name his art "Goju" until the early 30's after a group of his students went to a large "exposition" in Japan. When they came back, they told him that all the martial arts in Japan had names. So, he decided on Goju as the most descriptive of what he did.

My experience of Goju is that, indeed, their focus is different early on. There is more emphasis on breath control, and they use terms like "rooting," "rising," "sinking," and "spitting" more than the Shuri/Tomari ryu. But, at senior levels in the Shuri based styles, internal concepts are also embodied in the kata. In my ryu, Shito ryu, for instance, both Naha and Shuri/Tomari kata are practiced. Mabuni even first considered calling it "Hanko ryu," or half-hard style. But, we still do not do the kata like the Goju folks. The breathing is different and the use of tension is different. I just think the emphasis on the internal comes earlier in Goju/Uechi ryu than it does in the Shuri based styles.

Hard/soft, internal/external get thrown around a lot. I think they are probably over-used. Some of these things are very hard to untangle as far as origins are concerned. Long years of regular training in any traditional ryu will produce "internal" karate. That is what it is all about.

So, Seasoned, if we are not on the same page, we are at least in the same chapter.

 

[kidswarrior]

Hard/soft, internal/external get thrown around a lot. I think they are probably over-used. Some of these things are very hard to untangle as far as origins are concerned. Long years of regular training in any traditional ryu will produce "internal" karate. That is what it is all about.

While my 'style' is not traditional, nor pure in the sense of having a long established history--nor even purely karate--it would certainly be considered external by those who find the category useful. Yet, as cstanley has said, at roughly 12 years of practice I suddenly began to notice some added benefits that seemed to just show up. Long story short, after much study and reflection these seem to me to be what are often described as 'internal' aspects of the MA.

So, yeah, the above quote validates something that I have experienced and believed to be true for several years now.

 

[seasoned]

We are indeed in the same chapter, pages are just the different ways we were taught ( styles, instructors, methods). Cstanley wrote “The Okinawans did not write a lot of stuff down, and oral tradition is often unreliable.” I understand this fully because of the way the Okinawans would teach us on subsequent visits to Okinawa over the years. They worked on the principal of caught rather then taught. The saying by them was always “just train“. They would always show you something rather then explain it because of the language barrier. It was always like we had to come back to our dojo and piece together the puzzle parts we each got. What I have found is, it is easier to teach techniques (external) then it is to teach the principles of internal concepts which is probably why they said “just train”. Which brings me to the Chinese martial arts in relation to Okinawan karate. The white Crane influence on Okinawan GoJu is based more on these internal principles rather then techniques. This is what I feel Kanryo Higashionna and Chojun Miyagi brought back with them. Indeed they didn’t go to China to learn how to fight or to learn new techniques but what they did bring back changed the face of Okinawa Te. As I look back on my training over the years I can see this internal influence from the beginning but I did not realize it at the time. As early as Sanchin you were learning "rooting, rising, sinking, swallowing and spitting" but to be honest with you, at the time, we just didn’t know it. It wasn’t until the puzzle pieces started to come together that we discovered what we had. And that is a blending of hard/soft, Go and Ju. The old masters felt that in order to practice long into old age and still be able to defend ourself we needed to “lighten up a bit”. In my younger years it was Go,Go but in my older years I better understand this thing we call GoJu.
Cstanley wrote:
“Hard/soft, internal/external get thrown around a lot. I think they are probably over-used. Some of these things are very hard to untangle as far as origins are concerned. Long years of regular training in any traditional ryu will produce "internal" karate. That is what it is all about.
. “Thank you, and very well put Mr. cstanley “.

Kidswarrior also validates this very nicely.

 

[chinto]

Where do you feel Sanchin Kata originated from, and do you feel that it is the cornerstone of Okinawa GoJu?

I know that it is a kata of chinese origan, what system I dont know of sure but I beleave it came from one of the fukiun crain systems. I am not a goju student or practioner myself, but it is my understanding that it is one of the earler kata tought as at least one of the foundation kata for the style. ( again, I am not a goju man so cant say for certian but that is what I was once told by some one who had some goju training.)